Hosp of the Univ of PA (Dermatology/3 yr)

penn for med-derm

who knows

i think when it is part of a list they want one of those things, not necessarily all but maybe im just hoping

resident here, nah

Is temple or penn state more friendly to OOS applicants?

this program has been awful

oooof imagine you just matched there and now have to worry for the next 9 months before starting

The derm who wrote this article also wrote the article titled 'a mentor is not automatically your advocate' and honestly it's good to hear other people further in training who have had similar experiences. It makes me feel like I'm not alone. But Dr. Lowenstein signing the petition to sunset DEI made me so annoyed/upset. There is also a very prominent faculty member at my insitution who signed the same petition who is very similar when it comes to mentorship, giving criticism, and playing with students/trainees careers. Moreso, it's interesting that many faculty members at other institutions know about this faculty member's antics but are not doing anything. I mean what is the APD doing? Writing memos about limiting away rotations and putting the onus on the medical student to be "equitable" when faculty with power like mine or Dr. Lowenstein exist. These faculty members are the ones creating structures of inequity that affect swaths of future physicians. All of this performative bullshit from the APD is so exhausting. Attack the most important problems for the love of God!!! < preach sister< AMEN

APD recommendations are super inequitable. I support limiting students to 2 aways with home or 3 without, but it needs to be a requirement, not a suggestion. I don't understand why they feel they cannot enforce said requirement.

ye all this does is reward people who go above and can get away with it

stanford come to mind

penn

any program that has a special research resident spot or combined med-derm program. Would also look at programs that take a lot of Mh/PhDs

jhu as well

miami, utsw, ucsf, michigan

sinai?

yale

Idk what specific answer you’re looking for…. Quality research (first-author, novel research, no bullshit case report/research letter) preferably with faculty at a T5 institution, step score >260, amazing clinical LORs, and something cool, non-med/derm hobby or project on the side. Bonus points if you go to a T5 med school. And even after all of this, pray to the Gods. And then be a cool, normal person at interviews.

does it matter if your resesarch is accepted versus submitted-- for example if im first author on a translational work and its just submitted will this be a huge disadvantage

accepted is better than submitted, but at least you can put submitted on eras

my first-author research was accepted super late like a few days prior to start of derm interviews because mentor didn't care and tried to sabotage :/ I had to bring it up in interviews. Probably hurt my overall interviews but helped a lot to secure match.

there is no specific answer. you could try to google or talk to the residents accepted to these programs but even then you might not even know what secret sauce they have lol. but there's most likely something interesting about each one of them (even if it's personal history, prior career outside medicine). or you might know and not even realize what the programs are valuing.

Lol. Connections. I say this as someone that graduated from a top 5 program, matched derm, and watched a bunch of people with basically equivalent applications end up all over the place. You need to ask yourself why you want a top 5 program? What do you hope to gain? You planning on staying in academic derm? No one cares in the end.

what do you mean by non-ivory tower programs... it's derm.

not op, but I strongly dislike this sentiment that some people have. As much as derm is competitive, there ARE ivory programs and non-ivory programs. Harvard, Yale, Penn, UCSF. An example of a non-ivory program: MCW. There will always be stratifications even in the most competitive of things, and these stratifications are always worth keeping in mind when you can only apply to 28 programs

ivory tower is a meaningless label, the earlier you learn that the better off you'll be

ivory tower is a meaningless label, the earlier you learn that the better off you'll be>>> yeah a ton of harvard/penn/ucsf grades end up going into private practice...

umm, yes ivory tower doesn't mean better training, but it is considered prestigious and harder to match. OP isn't asking about ivory tower programs, they're asking about non-ivory programs, so your "the earlier you learn" comment comes off as not helpful and condescending

this whole let's not talk about the T10 things is weird and comes off as gatekeepy. These programs exist and people will still be applying to them. Besides, I agree with the previous commenter, OP is asking about non-ivory tower/community programs. No need to step up on y'all's soapbox

When I rotated at Orange Park they had MD residents from UMiami and UCLA. But I know at least the UMiami grad rotated there and they seem to highly prefer their rotators.

Oooomph that’s gonna be a mega long shot bestie. Highest chances will be doing a RY with an attending there if you’re willing to take a RY

Hard to get in unless you have a connection or are strongly targeting the "less desirable" tracks like peds or med derm

even those are pretty hard. heard they do RTM calls for all their positions too

I matched at penn with no connection, no away and no RTM call

this year?? per the 2026 match tab the gen derm spots were a home student and someone who did an RY at harvard

Worry about matching and don't obcess with T5! T5 match seems to be a lot of who you know, though.

anyone know how imgs match into t5 unis, meanwhile so many us applicants are trying to match

they tend to do research years (sometimes multiple) with PIs who have strong pull at their home programs. Of course they have great STEPS and work ethic, but the research years are really what cements a lot of their potential in matching

Yikes, why are we so snarky about IMGs matching. Imagine the goated application they must have had

IMGs will almost exclusively only match derm at a place they've done multiple RYs. This could be a top tier program (e.g. I think Penn, Stanford, Miami have taken some in the past) or not. They very likely grinded very hard and put in some good work and deserve that spot

Harvard

USC

Even more important than rotation mills are programs that only take their own research fellows. While rotation mills will still interview and match a percentage of their rotators (with variability between programs), programs that only take their research fellows will rotate and interview many of their rotators, but ultimately offer little to no chance of matching for those outside their fellows.

what programs do this besides sinai

what programs do this besides sinai, Mayo AZ

Rotating, signaling, and interviewing at these programs is a waste of time and is performative; they already know who they plan to take for the upcoming cycle

WashU

very true. Do NOT waste your time at Mayo AZ or Sinai. UConn also (at least this year). CWRU as well is a major rotation mill people need to talk more about

UCONN

Penn

Wake

CWRU

northwestern

Every other year uconn has taken a lot of their away rotators, including all their current residents.

Can someone elaborate on this "2-3" aways advice? Many times in the other spreadsheet people said to only do 2 due to the APD recommendations.. How enforced/risky is it to do 3?

ask your program leadership to see how much they care about following the rules. If you have no home program however, you can do 3 aways safely. But at a minimum do your 2 aways. I'm seeing people underapplying and ending up with 0-1 aways because they were too picky. And stop rotating at places you have no shot at (rotation mills, harvard/penn tier if you're a regular applicant)

How would you define a not regular applicant?

having just 260+ and RY alone doesn't make you a stand out candidate. these days you need an X factor (wow factor) like being an olympic athlete, MD-PhD published in lancet, started a company or non-profit, etc. it's a lot more competitive than people think and unfortunately people find this out too late.

I'm gonna throw up

Is there any danger in over-applying and then having to turn down programs? Does that disadvantage you in trying to get an interview there?

false you dont need wow factors you just need them to like you, programs pick people they like once basic competence is fulfilled as simple as that sounds

im just answering the original question, not saying that's what you need to match derm. You can match derm in general with a much more average app

each derm program is already oversaturated with increasing internal numbers, research fellows, away rotators, reapps, so getting an interview w/o an away is extremely hard unless you have killer scores. my two cents are to apply and do as many aways as you can, rather than burning any meager bridges you had to begin with by withdrawing from an away. worse case APD guidelines say applicants shouldn't be penalized for withdrawing from aways if they chose to "adhere to the guidelines of 2/3 aways"

APD trying to normalize and abnormal process. You follow the rules and do 2 aways while someone else does 5. Or you do 2 aways and someone else follows the rules with you but secretly has nepo connections with a guaranteed seat somewhere while you're stressing over not matching. Stop handicapping yourself to appease some socially inept out of touch group of nerds

each derm program is already oversaturated with increasing internal numbers, research fellows, away rotators, reapps, so getting an interview w/o an away is extremely hard unless you have killer scores. my two cents are to apply and do as many aways as you can, rather than worry about burning any meager bridges you had to begin with by withdrawing from an away. worse case APD guidelines say applicants shouldn't be penalized for withdrawing from aways if they chose to "adhere to the guidelines of 2/3 aways"

you right my b

I just want to say I didn't have any real problems with securing my aways because I asked my mentors in november if I could rotate the following year. Don't be afraid to ask people who can help you to help you early, because VSLO can be super unpredictable. I think the real race starts even before VSLO lol

Pick your aways carefully

word

I know there’s a list of rotation mills, but it’s also important to consider which programs primarily take their own RY fellows, doing an away rotation there and signaling them is a complete waste

How many aways should we have right now to feel comfortable and not an impending sense of doom

Has anyone heard back from UCLA

matched applicant this cycle here, completely agree with OP. apply aggressively and do as many aways as you can, even if that is 5 or 6 one-month long rotations. It will be exhuasting but Do them, they will yield interviews and while quality> quanitity it is also a numbers game and more interviews = more chances

As a final parting message from a matched re-applicant - the application cycle starts the moment VSLO opens. Right now is the key moment that will lay the foundation of your cycle. People may disagree with me, but I will personally advise anyone reading this to aggressively apply for aways right now. You need, at a minimum, to strive to get 2-3 aways. The more aways you get the better your chance at matching. Keep applying for aways, you may not always get your top choices but something is better than nothing. And use your mentors to help you get aways if you still aren't getting any despite applying to a good # of aways, or if you just want a specific away. Please please please listen to what I am saying to give yourself the best chance at matching.> second this as another matched applicant

Can someone elaborate on this "2-3" aways advice? Many times in the other spreadsheet people said to only do 2 due to the APD recommendations.. How enforced/risky is it to do 3?

ask your program leadership to see how much they care about following the rules. If you have no home program however, you can do 3 aways safely. But at a minimum do your 2 aways. I'm seeing people underapplying and ending up with 0-1 aways because they were too picky. And stop rotating at places you have no shot at (rotation mills, harvard/penn tier if you're a regular applicant)

matched applicant this cycle here, completely agree with OP. apply aggressively and do as many aways as you can, even if that is 5 or 6 one-month long rotations. It will be exhuasting but Do them, they will yield interviews and while quality> quanitity it is also a numbers game and more interviews = more chances

How would you define a not regular applicant?

having just 260+ and RY alone doesn't make you a stand out candidate. these days you need an X factor (wow factor) like being an olympic athlete, MD-PhD published in lancet, started a company or non-profit, etc. it's a lot more competitive than people think and unfortunately people find this out too late.

false you dont need wow factors you just need them to like you, programs pick people they like once basic competence is fulfilled as simple as that sounds

im just answering the original question, not saying that's what you need to match derm. You can match derm in general with a much more average app

you right my b

I'm gonna throw up

Is there any danger in over-applying and then having to turn down programs? Does that disadvantage you in trying to get an interview there?

each derm program is already oversaturated with increasing internal numbers, research fellows, away rotators, reapps, so getting an interview w/o an away is extremely hard unless you have killer scores. my two cents are to apply and do as many aways as you can, rather than worry about burning any meager bridges you had to begin with by withdrawing from an away. worse case APD guidelines say applicants shouldn't be penalized for withdrawing from aways if they chose to "adhere to the guidelines of 2/3 aways"

I just want to say I didn't have any real problems with securing my aways because I asked my mentors in november if I could rotate the following year. Don't be afraid to ask people who can help you to help you early, because VSLO can be super unpredictable. I think the real race starts even before VSLO lol

Pick your aways carefully

word

I know there’s a list of rotation mills, but it’s also important to consider which programs primarily take their own RY fellows, doing an away rotation there and signaling them is a complete waste

How many aways should we have right now to feel comfortable and not an impending sense of doom

Has anyone heard back from UCLA

this made me lol but same

third this 100000x

agree with the prior comment- for every "adhere to APD guidelines" comment there is a response comment saying "they are just guidelines, i did not follow" etc.

last year penn state really only interviewed rotators an golds, so take that into account

how do you find out this information

i would like to knwo too how you find this information

not OP but typically word of mouth, i doubt theyll dox themselves and give more info than that

yikes

this program has been awful

oooof imagine you just matched there and now have to worry for the next 9 months before starting

The derm who wrote this article also wrote the article titled 'a mentor is not automatically your advocate' and honestly it's good to hear other people further in training who have had similar experiences. It makes me feel like I'm not alone. But Dr. Lowenstein signing the petition to sunset DEI made me so annoyed/upset. There is also a very prominent faculty member at my insitution who signed the same petition who is very similar when it comes to mentorship, giving criticism, and playing with students/trainees careers. Moreso, it's interesting that many faculty members at other institutions know about this faculty member's antics but are not doing anything. I mean what is the APD doing? Writing memos about limiting away rotations and putting the onus on the medical student to be "equitable" when faculty with power like mine or Dr. Lowenstein exist. These faculty members are the ones creating structures of inequity that affect swaths of future physicians. All of this performative bullshit from the APD is so exhausting. Attack the most important problems for the love of God!!! < preach sister

APD recommendations are super inequitable. I support limiting students to 2 aways with home or 3 without, but it needs to be a requirement, not a suggestion. I don't understand why they feel they cannot enforce said requirement.

The derm who wrote this article also wrote the article titled 'a mentor is not automatically your advocate' and honestly it's good to hear other people further in training who have had similar experiences. It makes me feel like I'm not alone. But Dr. Lowenstein signing the petition to sunset DEI made me so annoyed/upset. There is also a very prominent faculty member at my insitution who signed the same petition who is very similar when it comes to mentorship, giving criticism, and playing with students/trainees careers. Moreso, it's interesting that many faculty members at other institutions know about this faculty member's antics but are not doing anything. I mean what is the APD doing? Writing memos about limiting away rotations and putting the onus on the medical student to be "equitable" when faculty with power like mine or Dr. Lowenstein exist. These faculty members are the ones creating structures of inequity that affect swaths of future physicians. All of this performative bullshit from the APD is so exhausting. Attack the most important problems for the love of God!!! < preach sister< AMEN

yikes --> probs still applying bc i wanna be in nyc :(

ye all this does is reward people who go above and can get away with it

Is temple or penn state more friendly to OOS applicants?

The best one is the one you like the most (+/- the one in the city you like the most)

This obsession with T5s, jeez. If it makes you happy, great! At the end of the day you will be a dermatologis though. People from not T5s end up as faculty at T5s all the time, and many T5 residents end up going into private practice.

initially had some regrets about ranking a "low ranked" program bc super chill and good vibes/locaiton. now that reality has sunk in i have 0 regrets, will be much happier for 4 years

had same issue went between T5 and literally a program many dont know about and im so glad im going to the other program because my QOL is going to be so much better

Middle tier programs in top tier cities are the best for derm imo

better a big fish in a small pond than the opposite. At the end of the day you'll be a dermatologist and will be able to get a job basically anywhere. Even if you want to stay in academia, people from "lower ranked" programs end up as attendings at Harvard/Penn/etc...

Middle tier programs in top tier cities are the best for derm imo agree, less pressure at work and lots of time to enjoy a fun city!

I feel like knowing where to do your audition rotations is so critical to matching but if you're outside of the state, you only know if you have inside information on how the actual residency program runs, which it seems like only home med students know.

I feel like knowing where to do your audition rotations is so critical to matching but if you're outside of the state, you only know if you have inside information on how the actual residency program runs, which it seems like only home med students know. But I feel like only certain types of students can rotate at places like Penn, Harvard, UCSF, etc. and have a reasonable chance of getting an interview. For most of us, it's a waste.

the cliquiness is sooo true. I felt put off at the social event because the residents would specifically interact and be super friendly with all the rotaters/internal students they knew, and no one knew me in the zoom call

yes, stanford in there too. there are really 6 T5 programs.

if you care about prestige... i wish you well