Mass General Brigham-MA

The best one is the one you like the most (+/- the one in the city you like the most)

This obsession with T5s, jeez. If it makes you happy, great! At the end of the day you will be a dermatologis though. People from not T5s end up as faculty at T5s all the time, and many T5 residents end up going into private practice.

Harvard

USC

Even more important than rotation mills are programs that only take their own research fellows. While rotation mills will still interview and match a percentage of their rotators (with variability between programs), programs that only take their research fellows will rotate and interview many of their rotators, but ultimately offer little to no chance of matching for those outside their fellows.

what programs do this besides sinai

what programs do this besides sinai, Mayo AZ

Rotating, signaling, and interviewing at these programs is a waste of time and is performative; they already know who they plan to take for the upcoming cycle

WashU

very true. Do NOT waste your time at Mayo AZ or Sinai. UConn also (at least this year). CWRU as well is a major rotation mill people need to talk more about

UCONN

Penn

Wake

CWRU

northwestern

I did not do any aways in the Boston area (have spent time there working before which I mentioned) but gold signaled and did get interviews from MGH/BIDMC (noting that MGH does not do signaling i guess), I really liked BIDMC as a program culture - they seem to work hard but everyone was really friendly and seemed to love being there, also really liked the med ed aspects. MGH seemed super workhorse and not sure how the Bigelow model works in real time (task oriented rather than team members taking specific patients); they tout their 24 hour shifts which are not appealing to me lol. I didn't end up matching at either d/t preferences but overall would have been really happy to be at BIDMC. Gold signaled but did not get II'd at BWH

Matched last cycle, have friends at both programs. BIDMC has great culture but you will basically be doing a categorical IM intern year with only 3 - 4 weeks of elective time that has to be taken in random medicine fields that may not be relevant to derm (though one friend had 1, only 1!, week of derm in the entire year). The program has no other time off or research time for prelims and scheduling STEP 3 studying and time for prelims is notoriously difficult for prelims here (my friend had to take their STEP 3 during vacation, no thanks!). In contrast, MGH culture is a little more intense but prelims get an assigned mentor in their PGY2 field there (which could be useful for fellow and research projects!) and have like 3.5 months throughout the year for research/elective. Overall I think MGH is a better program for prelims as it is built as such, BIDMC program is basically a categorical IM intern year.

Great points thank you for addressing the elective time difference (reply #1 here lol), that is a huge consideration!!

intern here doing a prelim that's basically a categorical IM program (not in Boston). My program sounds basically identical to what the poster described for BIDMC. In retrospect, I would 100% take a program like MGH (even if there are Q24hs here and there) vs. my current situation. Not having time off to decompress from the B.S of wards and medicine has really made me jaded this year. I genuenely think 6 months of medicine throughout the year is enough for a dermatologist, suffering through an extra 6 months has taken a toll on my mental health. If I was you, I would highly consider doing an away at MGH or BWH vs. BIDMC (after reading about their prelim programs) and rank them accordingly if you get to interview there.

Intern here doing a prelim that's basically a categorical IM program (not in Boston). My program sounds basically identical to what the poster described for BIDMC on reply #2. In retrospect, I would 100% take a program like MGH (even if there are Q24hs here and there) vs. my current situation. Not having time off to decompress from the B.S of wards and medicine has really made me jaded this year. I genuenely think 6 months of medicine throughout the year is enough for a dermatologist, suffering through an extra 6 months has taken a toll on my mental health. If I was you, I would highly consider doing an away at MGH or BWH vs. BIDMC (after reading about their prelim programs) and rank them accordingly if you get to interview there.

Can someone elaborate on this "2-3" aways advice? Many times in the other spreadsheet people said to only do 2 due to the APD recommendations.. How enforced/risky is it to do 3?

ask your program leadership to see how much they care about following the rules. If you have no home program however, you can do 3 aways safely. But at a minimum do your 2 aways. I'm seeing people underapplying and ending up with 0-1 aways because they were too picky. And stop rotating at places you have no shot at (rotation mills, harvard/penn tier if you're a regular applicant)

How would you define a not regular applicant?

having just 260+ and RY alone doesn't make you a stand out candidate. these days you need an X factor (wow factor) like being an olympic athlete, MD-PhD published in lancet, started a company or non-profit, etc. it's a lot more competitive than people think and unfortunately people find this out too late.

I'm gonna throw up

Is there any danger in over-applying and then having to turn down programs? Does that disadvantage you in trying to get an interview there?

false you dont need wow factors you just need them to like you, programs pick people they like once basic competence is fulfilled as simple as that sounds

im just answering the original question, not saying that's what you need to match derm. You can match derm in general with a much more average app

each derm program is already oversaturated with increasing internal numbers, research fellows, away rotators, reapps, so getting an interview w/o an away is extremely hard unless you have killer scores. my two cents are to apply and do as many aways as you can, rather than burning any meager bridges you had to begin with by withdrawing from an away. worse case APD guidelines say applicants shouldn't be penalized for withdrawing from aways if they chose to "adhere to the guidelines of 2/3 aways"

APD trying to normalize and abnormal process. You follow the rules and do 2 aways while someone else does 5. Or you do 2 aways and someone else follows the rules with you but secretly has nepo connections with a guaranteed seat somewhere while you're stressing over not matching. Stop handicapping yourself to appease some socially inept out of touch group of nerds

each derm program is already oversaturated with increasing internal numbers, research fellows, away rotators, reapps, so getting an interview w/o an away is extremely hard unless you have killer scores. my two cents are to apply and do as many aways as you can, rather than worry about burning any meager bridges you had to begin with by withdrawing from an away. worse case APD guidelines say applicants shouldn't be penalized for withdrawing from aways if they chose to "adhere to the guidelines of 2/3 aways"

you right my b

I just want to say I didn't have any real problems with securing my aways because I asked my mentors in november if I could rotate the following year. Don't be afraid to ask people who can help you to help you early, because VSLO can be super unpredictable. I think the real race starts even before VSLO lol

Pick your aways carefully

word

I know there’s a list of rotation mills, but it’s also important to consider which programs primarily take their own RY fellows, doing an away rotation there and signaling them is a complete waste

How many aways should we have right now to feel comfortable and not an impending sense of doom

Has anyone heard back from UCLA

matched applicant this cycle here, completely agree with OP. apply aggressively and do as many aways as you can, even if that is 5 or 6 one-month long rotations. It will be exhuasting but Do them, they will yield interviews and while quality> quanitity it is also a numbers game and more interviews = more chances

As a final parting message from a matched re-applicant - the application cycle starts the moment VSLO opens. Right now is the key moment that will lay the foundation of your cycle. People may disagree with me, but I will personally advise anyone reading this to aggressively apply for aways right now. You need, at a minimum, to strive to get 2-3 aways. The more aways you get the better your chance at matching. Keep applying for aways, you may not always get your top choices but something is better than nothing. And use your mentors to help you get aways if you still aren't getting any despite applying to a good # of aways, or if you just want a specific away. Please please please listen to what I am saying to give yourself the best chance at matching.> second this as another matched applicant

Can someone elaborate on this "2-3" aways advice? Many times in the other spreadsheet people said to only do 2 due to the APD recommendations.. How enforced/risky is it to do 3?

ask your program leadership to see how much they care about following the rules. If you have no home program however, you can do 3 aways safely. But at a minimum do your 2 aways. I'm seeing people underapplying and ending up with 0-1 aways because they were too picky. And stop rotating at places you have no shot at (rotation mills, harvard/penn tier if you're a regular applicant)

matched applicant this cycle here, completely agree with OP. apply aggressively and do as many aways as you can, even if that is 5 or 6 one-month long rotations. It will be exhuasting but Do them, they will yield interviews and while quality> quanitity it is also a numbers game and more interviews = more chances

How would you define a not regular applicant?

having just 260+ and RY alone doesn't make you a stand out candidate. these days you need an X factor (wow factor) like being an olympic athlete, MD-PhD published in lancet, started a company or non-profit, etc. it's a lot more competitive than people think and unfortunately people find this out too late.

false you dont need wow factors you just need them to like you, programs pick people they like once basic competence is fulfilled as simple as that sounds

im just answering the original question, not saying that's what you need to match derm. You can match derm in general with a much more average app

you right my b

I'm gonna throw up

Is there any danger in over-applying and then having to turn down programs? Does that disadvantage you in trying to get an interview there?

each derm program is already oversaturated with increasing internal numbers, research fellows, away rotators, reapps, so getting an interview w/o an away is extremely hard unless you have killer scores. my two cents are to apply and do as many aways as you can, rather than worry about burning any meager bridges you had to begin with by withdrawing from an away. worse case APD guidelines say applicants shouldn't be penalized for withdrawing from aways if they chose to "adhere to the guidelines of 2/3 aways"

I just want to say I didn't have any real problems with securing my aways because I asked my mentors in november if I could rotate the following year. Don't be afraid to ask people who can help you to help you early, because VSLO can be super unpredictable. I think the real race starts even before VSLO lol

Pick your aways carefully

word

I know there’s a list of rotation mills, but it’s also important to consider which programs primarily take their own RY fellows, doing an away rotation there and signaling them is a complete waste

How many aways should we have right now to feel comfortable and not an impending sense of doom

Has anyone heard back from UCLA

this made me lol but same

third this 100000x

agree with the prior comment- for every "adhere to APD guidelines" comment there is a response comment saying "they are just guidelines, i did not follow" etc.

A plurality of candidates match at home program. None of those candidates 'needed' to do an away. Aways are very helpful but you can match w/o

people match wihout doing a single away alll the time

but is this people who are choosing not to do any aways or those not getting offers?

usually schools like harvard where they discourage it

so NOT people who applied and just didnt get offers :(

no aways and matched. however i had to really show people my personality during interviews etc. and couldn't bank on people already knowing what i was about

how did you go about doing that effectively? and did you apply to aways or chose not to?

I chose not to apply to aways until july bc wasn't convinced on it being worth the money. I got multiple interviews with 1 away (in nov) and i didn't match at the away. I could've just saved my money for a month (although still happy no matter what, hindsight 20/20). I also got rejected from like 19 aways and only got 1 and got an interview at a place that rejected my away app. YOU WILL BE OK

that is actually so helpful to hear :') and im happy it all worked out for you!

Matched at my top choice without doing an away -- you will be just fine!! Just nail your interviews.

this is going to be an annoying answer, I know. But i just kept reminding myself to be authentic - I talked ALOT to my boyfriend everyday about experiences that I had in the past and during my RY and current topics in healthcare, in hindsight I realized that these "rant sessions" were really just practice interviews to me. I chose to not do aways, but I wish I had done at least one away because I missed out on a few institutions that I really liked. But ended up matching at an institution I probably would have picked over the others anyway.

I also matched at a T5 without an away! you dont need to do an away to match at many places

catty resident at Stanford who treated me like sh** during my away and then was fake af during my interview

Two certain Harvard PIs who employ an army of research fellows and leave them hanging, also they play favorites...

weird Case resident that made tiktoks talking shit about the rotating med students

name and shame!!

not OP but sounds like Vinod Naubidiri or Steven Chen

Was this a PGY3??> lol i wish i could shame one place so much but it's too small >:( i think i've done enough shaming to the right people though

Someone drop the tea on Case lol they matched only home students

not OP but sounds like Vinod Naubidiri or Steven Chen >> Adena Rosenblatt at UChicago is a damn weirdo, and she has a passive aggressive MA that is rude to all the medical students.

super rude PGY3 at USC Derm I hated working with her

lol i wish i could shame one place so much but it's too small >:( i think i've done enough shaming to the right people though

how do Nambudiri and Chen play favorites?

yesss harvard is super bad institution nobody apply yall

Harvard RYs have good match though, why not apply? I see RYs who did research with Chen matched Harvard... like?

sounds like some salty people here this year

every year there are, always happens after match :P

i can't edit my comment but was being sarcastic w/ the nobody apply comment. the OP sounds a bit salty - not trying to invalidate the stress of RYs especially at a top institution that attracts great students

super rude PGY3 I hated working with her

Agree some oft the PGY3s at Case are so toxic

was the stanford resident a pgy-2?

would definitely recommend the smaller, lower tier school that you're interested in matching at and this is coming from someone who did their RY at a top-tier program with many other research fellows

Anyone have thoughts on Mount Sinai RY (other than the internal bias for their RY candidates, are they decent output, good mentorship?)

imo one of the best RYs you can do. several of their RY students presented at AAD this year. your mentor will be a derm expert and if you work hard and get along with everyone you have a very good chance of matching there

imo one of the best RYs you can do. several of their RY students presented at AAD this year. your mentor will be a derm expert and if you work hard and get along with everyone you have a very good chance of matching there>> Presenting to AAD aint shit lmao the only benefit is that they have strong linkage to match internal.

Thoughts on doing a RY at Harvard?

why

bc i want to weigh my options before applying

you apply based on ties, connections, and location pref. Otherwise, everything else is basically RNG. Godspeed if you're aiming for T5

thank you, but connections and RNG aside, and im willing to move anywhere, are they created equal or is one going to give an edge? not trying to be a snob or anything. just want genuine info for life changing career decisions

Don't love the way the question was framed about which t5 is the "worst" - they are all great for different reasons (as are non T5 programs). Harvard is great for inpatient and complex med-derm along with network; less ideal for QoL. UCSF is great for clinical volume, location, mentorship; less ideal for QoL, exploring non-clinical interests given the more busy schedule/various sites. Penn is a good balance of clinical training, research, QoL but def leans much more academic and location is not for everyone. NYU is great for clinical volume, procedural derm, network, research; less ideal for those who aren't into NYC and its pace. Stanford is great for research, innovation, kind faculty; less ideal for Mohs, clinical volume/diversity. Just a few thougts, but again. Matching derm anywhere is a huge accomplishment - don't focus too much on the rankings, focus on the personal fit for you.

someone who thinks they're better than any of the T5s is about to get a rude awakening lol

initially had some regrets about ranking a "low ranked" program bc super chill and good vibes/locaiton. now that reality has sunk in i have 0 regrets, will be much happier for 4 years

had same issue went between T5 and literally a program many dont know about and im so glad im going to the other program because my QOL is going to be so much better

Middle tier programs in top tier cities are the best for derm imo

better a big fish in a small pond than the opposite. At the end of the day you'll be a dermatologist and will be able to get a job basically anywhere. Even if you want to stay in academia, people from "lower ranked" programs end up as attendings at Harvard/Penn/etc...

Middle tier programs in top tier cities are the best for derm imo agree, less pressure at work and lots of time to enjoy a fun city!

if this is about the harvard match, that was from a friend from prior year if it helps, and it's not the norm just a good example of why the match results are not one dimensional

I have a friend who ranked harvard #1 last year and too didnt match, known someone who matched there and didnt even rank them top 3, its kinda messed up ngl

i matched at a t5 that was not my dream program, but probably was someone elses. but that also happened to me, yah know

on a similar note, it stings coming on here and seeing people trash the program i matched at for no clear reason when im really excited to have matched...

who cares what other people think, youll never meet a hater doing better than you

NRMP really should just say that it's program favored and stop getting our hopes up

erm, the anecdotes above clearly show that it is applicant favored

it's people coping with the program they matched in or coping with being unmatched

derm resident here - people are nitpicking derm programs so much on here to an unhealthy level. People trashed my program on here but my experience with my program has been completely the opposite of what people were saying. I wonder if some element of it is either jealousy, or people trying to get others to rank the program lower. Either way, pay it no mind and celebrate that you will become a dermatologist and living the dream

love this, thank you!

also salty away rotators or rejects will have the most negative shit to say. hating from outside the club when they can't even get in

I feel like knowing where to do your audition rotations is so critical to matching but if you're outside of the state, you only know if you have inside information on how the actual residency program runs, which it seems like only home med students know.

I feel like knowing where to do your audition rotations is so critical to matching but if you're outside of the state, you only know if you have inside information on how the actual residency program runs, which it seems like only home med students know. But I feel like only certain types of students can rotate at places like Penn, Harvard, UCSF, etc. and have a reasonable chance of getting an interview. For most of us, it's a waste.

the cliquiness is sooo true. I felt put off at the social event because the residents would specifically interact and be super friendly with all the rotaters/internal students they knew, and no one knew me in the zoom call

yes, stanford in there too. there are really 6 T5 programs.

if you care about prestige... i wish you well

I mean I matched at an away in a top tier city at a place that my program never matched anyone before. Aways can open up doors for you

I'd consider the fact that a LOT of students actually WANT to stay at their home programs. Although this is not true everywhere, it's certainly true at my program. Many Derm applicants were also competitive med school applicants and chose their med school precisely because they like the programs there and/or the city (Chicago, NY, Cali, etc). But you're right, it's hard to 'break into' a program

complete data is probably something like 33%-40% of people match at their home. thats really not that high to where its pointless to network. 60+% match elsewhere.

i appreciated external experiences and thought about it but decided the grass isn't always greener lol

some programs seems to have started not matching their own students as often as they did in the past. Harvard used to match 3 - 5 HMS students every year, the last two years they only matched 2 (this year ~14 applied from Harvard!).

I ranked my home program #1 above more "prestigious" programs where I did aways, but I really like my department and the location

I think doing aways (esp in a different region) can help to communicate a willingness to relocate as well. I matched at a program outside my region without having rotated there and I think the away that I did complete is likely part of the reason they even interviewed me

It's called being exceptional

bc school prestige isnt the only thing that matters when applying to residency?

cause I didn't like the vibe at the "top" programs, including my home program and loved the vibe at the program I ranked #1

LOUDER

i have a hard time believing that the exceptional applicant at a T10 is not as good as an exceptional applicant from a random medical school. process seems arbitrary

better med school does not necessarily mean better student

nah programs look for random attributes, hard to predict. no such thing as the "perfect" candidate anymore >> THIS. The days of going to a top tier med school, stellar board scores, being top of your class (plus or minus AOA), with a few case reports effectively writing your ticket to any Derm program in the country is effectively over.

some of us are just over the rat race tbh

better med school does not necessarily mean better student >> Hubris to think there is something particularly exceptional about you when most of yall are cookie cutter copy pasted

Went to a T5 for medschool, I am done with the academic rat race and prestige boners that everyone has in derm. I ranked higher a "lower" ranked program (where I ultimately matched and I am incredibly happy!) to be close to family and also receive a great clinical training that would not be diluted by unnecesary research requirements or being an attending's note writer. I know for a fact that many T10 programs have a huge focus in research and residents have little agency, and for many that's fine. At the end of the day I became a doctor to see and treat patients, not do research that most of the time helps no one other than myself and other academic megalomaniacs. I know many of my T5 peers felt the same way about their match approach, not only in derm but other competititve specialties.

Just wanted to add to the discourse, I also attend a T5 med school and ranked a "lower" ranked program (still very strong academically) first because I was so tired of the ivory tower rat race. At some point, you have to break the cycle and prioritize happiness

prestige. I didn't want to stress about doing research as a resident and deal with the high egos of those at top research institutions. The beauty of derm is that we can choose to go to a chill, happy residency program and our training and job prospects are not compromised. Hopefully mine and other top medical students' perspectives on this can encourage future applicants to prioritize themselves over status/prestige.

this makes me sad that some ppl might think i was a weak applicant when in reality i did get 6 T10 interviews and 4 T20 interviews and I ended up choosing much lower ranked program in the end (well outside of T50) bc of location

exactly. and why more people are surprised every year even when they're doing every right

i did this too! so good to hear others doing the same !

I love how this conversation turned into t5 med school applicants defending why they matched at lower ranked derm programs. We've completely ignored the entirely problematic question by OP that automatically assumes students from higher tier med schools are entitled to match at top derm programs. Guess what... some students at lower ranked med schools might actually have stronger dermatology applications than some t10 students, and thats why they were able to match at top derm programs! School prestige isn’t everything… and it shouldn’t be.

exactly. and why more people are surprised every year even when they're doing every right << I understand the frustration though because some Student Affairs and even clinical faculty are giving outdated information. It would be helpful to know what programs are REALLY looking for (not just what they say on websites claiming to be looking for.

this makes me sad that some ppl might think i was a weak applicant when in reality i did get 6 T10 interviews and 4 T20 interviews and I ended up choosing much lower ranked program in the end (well outside of T50) bc of location >> I can say from personal experience going to a "top program" is not always a good thing

exactly. and why more people are surprised every year even when they're doing every right << I understand the frustration though because some Student Affairs depts and even Derm clinical faculty are giving outdated information. It would be helpful to know what programs are REALLY looking for (not just what they say on websites claiming to be looking for).

say more pls

love this perspective! it's honestly so true. stop torturing urselves

i went to a T5 med school and had over 20 interviews and elected to rank a community program #1, because of personal values and long term goals. stop judging where people matched when you have no idea what their rank list was. i know someone who matched harvard and had ranked them #6 so the final list is not the full story and success is multidimensional

yah, echoing this, i went to T5 schools for college and med school. I'm tireeeed and don't wanna grind anymore. I just want to have a salary, work with nice people, live close to family, have kids, own a house with a yard.

man, as someone who ranked harvard #1 and didnt match there, it hurts seeing someone who ranked then #6 and did, wtf is this matching process even

Very mature thinking of you, it will serve you well.

people from Vanderbilt might assume they have a better chance bc their school is "better" or "higher in rankings" so may not try as hard on rotations or with creating connections. Personal opinion

Harvard matched 14, Hopkins 10 and Penn 10 -- I'm kinda seeing a pattern there lol

vanderbilt only had 1 person apply derm this year

14 is crazy

last year penn had almost 10 unmatched tho

UIC matched 7 which is impressive for mid tier

Harvard didn't match 14, matched 11.

vanderbilt only had 1 person apply derm this year << I imagine one of the reasons Colorado's med students had an easier time getting into Derm as because of the dermatoepidemiology research of Dr. Dellavalle where he cranks out publications like crazy.

The best schools match the best, maybe its school name maybe its cuz those ppl are cracked. I've heard my PD say that the top programs care more about med school rank

he left CO a few years ago so idk how many current applicants even worked with him

Harvard matched 11, some students went unmatched

vanderbilt only had 1 person apply derm this year << I imagine one of the reasons Colorado's med students had an easier time getting into Derm is because of the dermatoepidemiology research of Dr. Dellavalle since he cranks out publications like crazy.

there was that one Harvard student on here who had 0 interviews because Harvard doesn't even interview all their internal applicants

that student had 0 IIs for a reason though

what was the reason???