Johns Hopkins Hosp-MD

<<Not a Baltimore fan, but Hopkins seems solid << Thanks guys that was some great info! << What are the chances if you are a non-internal, non-researcher? - is it just me or looking at their current residents looks like Hopkins matches a lot of their own med students/researchers

My guess: Mt. Sinai, Wake, Howard, UCSF, Harvard, U penn, NYU

< you forgot UTAH

NYU??? x2

absolutely NYU << dang one would think that best skin of color training would occur in places with high % skin of color pop (Detroit, Birmingham, Baltimore, etc)

really UTAH?

I think sarcasm

What about Henry Ford, Emory, UNC, NW? Henry Ford PD actually felt the need to reassure us during the interview presentation that they get to see skin cancer at community clinics because the main hospital is so heavily just skin of color

<I rotated at UNC and felt it was very diverse - agreed, very pleasantly surprised

Another vote for Wake Forest! Amy McMichael is an amazing doctor and person!

<- WF faculty seems diverse, but their patient population is still pretty rural and not as diverse

yes, but Dr. McMichael has an interest in SOC so tailors her teaching/clinic to that. She gave a talk to our program a few years ago, hence the fangirling.

Also, Hopkins has a specific initiative to support underrepresented minority faculty and residents.

email and eras

did the email have your name on it? could it still be being sent out? interview dates 1/8 and 1/15? // can I still stay hopeful bc it’s only x4 rn :/

im so happy these schools think my application is garbage :) x 3 * OUR applications are not shitty!!! They have fellows friends of family and also “perfect” candidates. It’s less about you. More politics to dermatology than you would know. << they probaby don't hate you, just your med school or your lack of derm family lol

Are you saying this in general? Or is hopkins in particular incestious/favoring rotators and people they know?

Any rotators not get this?

yes fml...am I the only one?< another rotator who did not get one...fml so much for connections

omg hello!!! everyone there was so nice too :((((((<< maybe they will send in multiple rounds? did any external get invites or only internal??

I hope so! Long shot, but the 4 people who got invites: Are you guys internals? <also curious about this

anyone unable to attend because of other interviews :(

no, but aren't there 2 dates? do both dates conflict? I have conflicts both dates too. I think hopkins is gonna be a big trickle

I wonder if they do that on purpose?

conflicts with both dates, from letter it seems like they were expecting it?

It is sad that I look forward to the weekend as a break from the disappointment. Was expecting it to be the opposite going into this process. Silly me lol

agree lol, i thought i had a pretty okay application going in << Meme King here, you and I both know it's selection bias. If we were applying to most other fields, we'd be near the top just like we are in our class, but now that we're in a cohort of people who are all that way, every little bit sets us apart from the next person. Schools don't give a fuck if you got a 250 because there are 10 other people that got a 260, and 10 other people beyond that who got a 270. Picky and vicious is how they be, we gotta keep our self esteem high.

<3 Our applications are phenomenal, they're setting artificially high standards and the majority of programs will be as surprised as us come match time.

I do wonder how much programs are surprised by their match lists << Program: "I made a huge mistake"

<< "We love unmatched derm applicants" - actual quote from IM advisor at my school. << Oof. I know at least one case for whom that was true << hi meme king here im feeling a bit salty can i post a really bitchy imaginary scenario

yes < what happens to the unmatched? do they take the prelim year and try to stay at that program to finish 3 years of IM? << We need to have a real talk thread about what to expect if we don't match. / What our options are.

Our school's IM program made a special exception for a derm candidate and offered a seat outside of the match. clueless question, but why would IM programs love unmatched derm applicants?

super strong applicants compared to general pool since they are applying to derm, dont get derm, are a sweet candidate for the IM spot

All dermatology programs receive hundreds of applications for a single of their slots, and this is how I imagine their logic and surprise must be when it comes to interviewing and ranking. You know how you applied to that top-tier reach university or ranked them high on your list because "well, why not take a shot?" We have 30 interviews for 2 slots here at UMidTierDermProgram! Of our 500 applications, we want to select applicants that will actually come here--wait, what's this? A Hopkins applicant? Here? Why? They have ridiculous stats...and what's this, a Columbia applicant too? Jeez, they make the rest of these applicants look like trash. But why would they realistically come here? Is our program...that strong? Or are they just over-applying? Should I waste two of our interview slots for these people? It would be amazing to have them on our roster...but should I take the opportunity from other people? "Well, why not take a shot?" And so programs interview an applicant who, according to a post on this page would rank them "dead last", put on their rose-colored glasses and rank them highly, and wonder what happened when they rank down their list come match day. - meme

< lel 10/10 would read again. I do have respect for the hyperregional midwest programs who consistently only interview applicants with strong ties to that program. it's on me for still applying to them as someone who has never lived in the midwest << Strong ties to *program* is the key word here. As someone born and raised in the midwest it did not help at all in terms of getting interview there, but it's my own fault for not doing an away.

yeah midwest student, no midwest invites x3

would also add UTSW https://www.mdedge.com/dermatology/article/157864/practice-management/us-dermatology-residency-program-rankings-based/page/0/1 <<what is the difference between this article and the doximity rankings? Is there more validity to one vs the other? << lol, someone put UCLA in top tier (UCLA isn't even a Department, it's a Division) >> lol UCLA low tier for sure << realistically, probably middle to low, great overall health system but will always have hands tied and no real ability to grow

UCLA is a solid program, strong surgical training, lacks the super complex patients of some more intense programs but it depends on what you are looking for in your training << I don't think anyone's saying it's a bad program, just not a top tier, that's kind of silly

UCLA is the perfect example of a low-to-mid tier program that is nonetheless quite competitive given it's in California. Again, there's often a disconnect between prestige/quality of training and competitiveness. Location, location, location.

No way that Hopkins and UCLA would be top tier over Michigan and Mayo

Mid-tier: OHSU, Iowa, Minnesota, UPMC >> Would probably put MN as low tier? >> Thoughts? Why? >> Minnesota would probably be in same tier as OHSU, Iowa, UPMC. Iowa has great faculty, but I think it does suffer from being in a relatively non-diverse, predominately white, smallish-city in Iowa. Minnesota, OHSU, and UPMC are in more urban environments with at least UPMC and Minnesota having more ethnic / racial diversity, (Portland is super white as well). Also, no one should trust that MDedge nonsense x5

To be fair they tried to make an objective measure. Many of the opinions here leave out some good programs and add in top medical schools that are not top derm programs

MN, Iowa as med-high tier? Would drop UPMC to low tier (just feel like no residents really enjoy it there but maybe that's just me lol)? And Iowa usually as a top 20 program on almost all ranking systems (though you cant always trust these things so who knows). I think its one of those places that suffers in many peoples minds because they have a not-so great med school and its in the mid west, but the derm program is actually extremely well-respected independednt of those facts

1. Penn 2. UCSF 3. NYU 4. Harvard 5. Stanford 6. Northwestern 7. Emory 8. UTSW 9. Hopkins 10. Wash U 11. Mayo 12. Michigan 13. Iowa 14. HF 15. OHSU 16. Colorado 17. Minnesota 18. Utah 19. Cornell 20. Vanderbilt

<-What is this list based on? Its totally inaccurate. Hopkins and Vanderbilt are mid tier programs at best. No Yale? No UW? No Wisconsin? No Miami? No Sinai? Cornell over Columbia? UPMC is definitely mid to top tier. Also, tiers maybe, but I dont understand how you can possibly rank 1 vs. 3 vs. 8 off the cuff << yeah, 1-3 is pretty standard, gets messy with next 5 I was about to post how accurate this list is. Some of the programs listed above are no way in the conversation. You can maybe disagree with Wash U/Cornell to the left tho. I'd agree Vanderbilt too high too

<Yale for sure. x4 . Think that list is pretty accurate for top 20 minus Wash U, Cornell, and Vanderbilt. Would replace with Yale and Columbia. And Cleveland Clinic maybe. <<I question the order of some of these too. Hopkins is not a top 10 (but it is a top 20 probably). I agree that Sinai, miami, Columbia would also be top 20. Vandy should not be on that list and neither should a few others.

<How good are the following programs: UPMC, Hopkins, UCSD, Miami.

I think those are all decent programs (mid-top tier?). I would say that I typically view Hopkins as a mid-tier program (they don't have a lot of diversity in terms of training sites, though Hopkins itself is a great hospital). Miami is typically considered a Top 10 program - but they also are quite disorganized, old facilities, longer hours (Saturday clinics). UPMC takes a lot of MD/PhDs and has great Mohs training, though I never found their program actually attracts people who want to be there. UCSD is solid, somewhat basic-science focused. It's outshined by other programs in California (e.g. Stanford, UCSF, USC) and San Diego has great weather / beaches, though admittedly isn't the most exciting place to live / lacks a lot of arts / culture compared to most bigger cities in the United States.

name me a state with better Mexican food tho

I thought the people at Harvard were fantastic x2.

The Harvard residents are super shady. They have secret hang-outs but dont invite the residents that arent "cool" enough. Serious mean girls shit. Lol. Very clique-y.

Wait where did you hear this? FAKE NEWSSSSS << I didn't "hear" it. I experienced it. If you don't believe me, go confront one of the "popular" residents about it.

LOL love how in the cell to the left Stanford residents are called tight knit and happy for sticking together and Harvard residents are called cliquey

If you feel "left out" by the residency class, maybe you're the weird one

harsh lol

Penn > UCSF > Stanford = Harvard >> all others . (x2 though I did not go to one of these, I have the same order for the other 3, but it varies alot with who you happened to talk to) ^sounds like someone's desperate to go to Harvard/UCSF/Stanford : )

haha I agree with this order, and I am ranking Penn 1. If people are actually trying to alter ranks by these orders, that is kinda sad....if it works that's even more sad lol

UCSF and Penn were my favorites x5 <- damn lol, you guys are very lucky to have interviewed at both

didn't interview at UCSF, but had the other 4 "top 5" programs and agree Penn residents seem closest. I would put NYU up there as well

utsw residents were chill! did not expect that x2

very pleasant surprise. The program moved up on my list based on the people there which I was not expecting

Hopkins residents were so fun and nice! x3

well.. depends. do you want to do Mohs?

Even if you want to do mohs, if you have a regional preference that is swaying you towards the mid tier than I would still go with the mid tier bc Mohs fellowship interviews have regional preferences outside of top tier

Mohs fellowship is all about connections AND there were multiple small programs I interviewed at where the in-house spot goes to their residents if they want it OR they are so well-trained they do mohs occasionally in practice (at an academic center) without fellowship. For bread and butter derm, non-top programs are better in my opinion. Also having a PD/Chair go to bat for you is massive for Mohs.

< I know people who are planning to do academics/research and still are ranking mid tier (top 20?) over some top 5. There is life outside of residency for normal people, so if you have a reason you should do it

If you want a job in a highly desireable city/at a competitive job (not at academic) it does help to go to a "respected" program which could mean top 5. Helps get connections. If you want to do private practice in a smaller city, probably makes no difference.

Meh. What matters is a PD or chair who is going to pick up the phone and call everyone they know in XYZ city to get you that job. AND, importantly, that the PD or chair won't judge you for wanting a private practice job and will still put in as much effort helping you get that job.

Don't be dumb. The "bougie" pp centers love posting about how their doctors are trained at Hopkins or Harvard. Why do you think TV doctors all trained at Harvard? 95% won't care, but the bougie ones with the best payor mixes do.// << This is very sad but true, for the most competitive private practices name matters a ton :( If you want rural or smaller city or less competitive market, it won't matter where you go//...right, but who actually wants to go practice in those places? Most specialties have a "doctor shortage" because no one wants to live in those bad areas. Everyone wants to live in DC, Boston, SF, NYC, etc, so you do yourself a diservice by going to a lower program. Basically HAVE to do a fellowship to work in a competitive city.//

how do you know this?

in an earlier post someone mentioned that stanford had a 100% mohs match rate, so I'm going off that and the fact that it's stanford

ok, but where did that person get his/her info? I doubt any program (even Stanford) is 100%

idk

<Does anyone know about Mohs match rate for Hopkins. they don't have a fellowship either

I know they always have people match...but I'm not sure how many have not matched in the past few years which is what matters more

everyone has matched from JHU in the past 5 years

I know of 1 who has not in past 5 years, I think rest have so still good match rate

<< outing derm program nepotism, for example, students who match at a parent's place of employment, is arguably an important step moving forward to discourage future foul play. thank you to all brave whistleblowers! <Yeah, the tier list is pointless. No need to give it any thought. While it is pointless, I really like there is an explanation why we should move those 3 programs down... TBH the explanation was pretty good haha << There is also a lot of bias since it is easier to try to move programs like Hopkins or Vandy higher on the list since those names have a better brand name... tier list is so silly in a field like derm where the vast majority of us are going to be in private practice. At which point 99% of patients don't give a shit where you did residency. << haha, someone deleted a comment about Harvard nepotism

#REF!

<<I have no issue with nepotism. If I have kids who want derm residency, I will definitely make phone calls and cash in favors. That’s how the world works. FWIW I’m a derm resident who matched without nepotism.

just because something DOES happen doesn't mean something SHOULD happen. yes, that's "the way the world works" but is arguably NOT the way the world should work.

yea Penn's website says by 11/25 I believe<<any source on hopkins coming out this week?

<<people have been saying Hopkins for the last 2 weeks lol

Out of curiousity do you consider those programs comparable. I've been at both departments and feel like they are very different (both good/amazing, but totally different imo)<very different yes, but each amazing in their own respective way. Im near the area of both and would be very happy at either

anyone care to elaborate on how they're different?

The cities are very different, faculty size and resources. While Hopkins is great and better than most places, Penn is in another league with a lot more going on in regards to clinic, research, etc. Very few places can compare to Penn. I personally would also be ecstatic to match at either if I'm lucky enough to get interviews. << Philly & Baltimore tho... <lol<<theyre both great cities that get a lot of bad rep. if you havent actually lived in either of them I wouldnt be so quick to talk. << I'm good never going back to Baltimore thx<good it doesnt want you there anyway

<<agreed that was brutal to make a new row with that nonsense. Heart is still racing lol x2

feel like invites are long overdue for them << instead of factoring it on last year's contact dates, a better predictor has been when the interview dates are coming up. both hopkins & mayo-AZ are in January <thank you, that's helpful to consider :)

Still a bunch of December programs haven't invited yet

unsure, this process can be incredibly unpredictable. I received a LOR from the away clerkship director, despite only working with her for one clinic day. Received an interview, but can't say how much the LOR helped.

congrats on your interview! :) and yeah, that's tough. I don't know. In hindsight I probably should have gotten one from the pd.

Could an LOI perhaps help? Maybe the faculty reading your application didn't realize you were a rotator. It doesn't hurt to try.

That's actually a really great idea! Thank you! I have nothing to lose lol. Do you think I should address it to the PD? << Personally I usually email it to the PC and leave it up to them whether to forward it to the PD, but you don't have much to lose at this point, so you may just consider CCing the PD.

I think if you are talking about top-tier programs, I have heard aways do nothing (source: go to top tier program) besides offer a "good educational experience." The only real way to secure an interview from an away rotation is to connect with someone who would be willing to advocate for you there, which may take even more than getting a letter from them.

Are you saying the latter applies to just top tier programs or all programs? And did your PD him/herself say that aways do nothing? << If aways do nothing, and assuming top-tier programs get applications for all applicants, how does the program possibly decide who to interview? It seems like it makes it even more random, with it coming down to the fact that if the faculty person who is reviewing your application connects with something on it, you'll get an invite. Unless they set 260 filters and just interview like the 40 applicants with that, you know? <Per PD at top-tier institution, aways mean nothing, and they want the best applicants period, and want to be free from biases associated with applicants wanting to be there << honest question, why is that a "bias?" one would think a program wants a resident who actually wants to be there.

also if they want the best applicants *period*, why do 80% of their residents come from their own school? not that they don't have stellar applicants, but I'm sure there are just as good or better applicants from other schools too <dunno, im just the messenger here guys. Nobody at my med school does aways, period. My guess is if you are a superstar applicant and do an away, it can only help. But if you are a middle of the line applicant that would otherwise not have gotten an interview, the away is not going to get you an interview either

weeeeeeelp that was a fantastic waste of a month. thanks for the "good educational experience," though! fml <Sorry!<<are you talking about Hopkins by any chance?

< mine was at a very away rotator friendly place, and anyone reviewing my app could have seen that i had the tailored PS and LOR from the institution. oh well. i have to deal with what i have and make the best of it.<was this hopkins by any chance? << not row Op, also no

op: yes re: hopkins...why?<<cause i think theyre still sending out interviews so i would lose hope yet!

thank you so much! did you just get an interview as a rotator yourself??<<yup! wish you the best OP, let us know if it works out in your favor<<even if it doesnt, realize hopkins had a ton of internal applicants this year and with only two interview dates, they are essentially taking up the bulk of the interview spots leaving very few for externals or even rotators sadly =/

not row OP, but do programs only interview around 40 applicants inclusive of internal applicants?

This has happened to me and what I was told is that even historically rotator-friendly places are now less rotator friendly because they're also getting more rotators and applicants compared to in the past. Some places now have 4 rotators a month for 5 months. That's 20 people and they might only interview 40. No way they want to give up half their spots to rotators/home applicants. It sucks. You can reach out to the PD or faculty that you met there that you really connected with. Showing genuine enthusasim for a place can't hurt and you've got nothing to lose a this point to send an email. Just be sincere and definitely have someone else read it to make sure you don't sound like a douche. I had co-rotators who acted like they were entitled to an interview and it is not a good look

<< first get the interview invites, then worry about ranking. << I think its reasonable to think about now, especially considering the possibility of having IV overlaps and having to drop a program

After talking with the lay public (my parents), going to a program with brand name recognition helps even if you're in private practice, since that's one the things people consider when choosing their doctor. But I have also been told med school prestige matters more.

Brand recognition and tier don't always match up. Hopkins and Vanderbilt are probably better known as names to average americans compared to UCSF. << probably matters more to people more familiar with medicine. Most don’t care about where a private practice doc trained. And echo that lay people don’t know strong training

The public knows about 10 big names. They care how nice their doc treats them.

Yea i would argue most patients do not know where their doctor went to med school or residency (or what residency is). I know many IMG docs who have busier practices and higher patient ratings because they have put more time in to hustle for their practice than their ivy league collegues.

<Another consideration is the type of training. You get exposed to cool rare things in top places, but their programs may advertise that majority go into academics and that is where their connections are. Lower tier places advertise the opposite since their connections are in other practice settings. <-- Yeah, this is not accurate. "Private practice connections" are mostly local (e.g. in the metro area a particular practice is in), regardless if a program is a "top" program or lower ranked. Having a "top" brand name attached to your name would still be valuable in private practice (both locally and outside the metro region of your program) - private practices like advertising "Harvard-trained" doctors, etc. It's silly, but a small consideration. Point being, lesser ranked programs are not going to have any more connections in private practice compared with a highly ranked program.

only internal

when did that happen? x1 any confirmation internals went out?<internals did not go out. < Where is my man sheet daddy at?

Columbia