U Michigan Hosps-Ann Arbor

As someone who has never left the West Coast, I should have listened to my mentors when they said programs in the South, Midwest, and to a lesser extent the East Coast wouldn't take my application seriously

<--- TRUTH

<-- any reasons West Coast programs take so long to send out invites if they're known to have geographical bias (a few Texas programs have gone out despite their bias)

not sure. I don't think there is a connection between geographic bias and when they send out invites

<-- maybe poster meant programs that have geographical bias might just screen out applicants from other regions

UMich PD used to call out of region applicants (with no warning) and say "we want to interview you - would you actually come here?". Terrifying!

what are you supposed to say to that besides "yes"?

would also add UTSW https://www.mdedge.com/dermatology/article/157864/practice-management/us-dermatology-residency-program-rankings-based/page/0/1 <<what is the difference between this article and the doximity rankings? Is there more validity to one vs the other? << lol, someone put UCLA in top tier (UCLA isn't even a Department, it's a Division) >> lol UCLA low tier for sure << realistically, probably middle to low, great overall health system but will always have hands tied and no real ability to grow

UCLA is a solid program, strong surgical training, lacks the super complex patients of some more intense programs but it depends on what you are looking for in your training << I don't think anyone's saying it's a bad program, just not a top tier, that's kind of silly

UCLA is the perfect example of a low-to-mid tier program that is nonetheless quite competitive given it's in California. Again, there's often a disconnect between prestige/quality of training and competitiveness. Location, location, location.

No way that Hopkins and UCLA would be top tier over Michigan and Mayo

Mid-tier: OHSU, Iowa, Minnesota, UPMC >> Would probably put MN as low tier? >> Thoughts? Why? >> Minnesota would probably be in same tier as OHSU, Iowa, UPMC. Iowa has great faculty, but I think it does suffer from being in a relatively non-diverse, predominately white, smallish-city in Iowa. Minnesota, OHSU, and UPMC are in more urban environments with at least UPMC and Minnesota having more ethnic / racial diversity, (Portland is super white as well). Also, no one should trust that MDedge nonsense x5

To be fair they tried to make an objective measure. Many of the opinions here leave out some good programs and add in top medical schools that are not top derm programs

MN, Iowa as med-high tier? Would drop UPMC to low tier (just feel like no residents really enjoy it there but maybe that's just me lol)? And Iowa usually as a top 20 program on almost all ranking systems (though you cant always trust these things so who knows). I think its one of those places that suffers in many peoples minds because they have a not-so great med school and its in the mid west, but the derm program is actually extremely well-respected independednt of those facts

1. Penn 2. UCSF 3. NYU 4. Harvard 5. Stanford 6. Northwestern 7. Emory 8. UTSW 9. Hopkins 10. Wash U 11. Mayo 12. Michigan 13. Iowa 14. HF 15. OHSU 16. Colorado 17. Minnesota 18. Utah 19. Cornell 20. Vanderbilt

<-What is this list based on? Its totally inaccurate. Hopkins and Vanderbilt are mid tier programs at best. No Yale? No UW? No Wisconsin? No Miami? No Sinai? Cornell over Columbia? UPMC is definitely mid to top tier. Also, tiers maybe, but I dont understand how you can possibly rank 1 vs. 3 vs. 8 off the cuff << yeah, 1-3 is pretty standard, gets messy with next 5 I was about to post how accurate this list is. Some of the programs listed above are no way in the conversation. You can maybe disagree with Wash U/Cornell to the left tho. I'd agree Vanderbilt too high too

<Yale for sure. x4 . Think that list is pretty accurate for top 20 minus Wash U, Cornell, and Vanderbilt. Would replace with Yale and Columbia. And Cleveland Clinic maybe. <<I question the order of some of these too. Hopkins is not a top 10 (but it is a top 20 probably). I agree that Sinai, miami, Columbia would also be top 20. Vandy should not be on that list and neither should a few others.

<How good are the following programs: UPMC, Hopkins, UCSD, Miami.

I think those are all decent programs (mid-top tier?). I would say that I typically view Hopkins as a mid-tier program (they don't have a lot of diversity in terms of training sites, though Hopkins itself is a great hospital). Miami is typically considered a Top 10 program - but they also are quite disorganized, old facilities, longer hours (Saturday clinics). UPMC takes a lot of MD/PhDs and has great Mohs training, though I never found their program actually attracts people who want to be there. UCSD is solid, somewhat basic-science focused. It's outshined by other programs in California (e.g. Stanford, UCSF, USC) and San Diego has great weather / beaches, though admittedly isn't the most exciting place to live / lacks a lot of arts / culture compared to most bigger cities in the United States.

name me a state with better Mexican food tho

agree with NYU, really left a strong impression on me. Another underrated one was Michigan. I thought the interview staff were exceptional and the interviewers had all read my app/had insightful questions

Emory!!!! Just kidding ... UVA was really solid

I'm actually so suprised by Michigan! That goes to show that you take the things said on the internet with a grain of salt. What ever malignancy that was there is definitely in the past. So many great changes have been made and the residents were genuinely happy.

interview day doesn't always equate to what it is actually like to work there x2

hopefully Michigan has changed as people have said since that post a few years back. I have friends who are there for things like ENT and plastics and they're known for having one of the best surgical cultures in the country

UAB! If this program were in a more popular or sexy location it would be a top tier type program. Extremely well-rounded with a big wig chair who advocates like heck for her residents for fellowships, jobs (private or academic). Residents get their fellowships in a very happy collegial atmosphere. Low COL, high QOL, overall awesome!

MCW! residents are incredibly nice, faculty is diverse in training and the program is growing. During the interview, chair is ambitious (he is an incredibly big name) and really trying to seel program. He has already accomplished a lot. Low COL and they really wanted everyone to be there. I also interviewed at UAB, it did not feel top tier. The faculty is incredibly small for it to be a top tier... yeah I was really disappointed by UAB too

MCG having a 100% Mohs match rate was impressive to me given the national averages

over what time frame?

I think is quite new program

Not sure over what time frame but seemed like since the chair has been there. the program was started in 1967 so not exactly new

agree with NYU...definitely solidified itself as #1 program in the country << you're trying too hard with this comment

A lot of other schools have strong telederm programs << like who? <emory< a lot of programs have integrated it at one of their sites. VA commonly has telederm at a few programs across the country.

Iowa, BU, Michigan, mizzou, etc

ok but which one is best? how is Pitt?

not sure which is best, but some google searching may tell you. I hear Mizzou's is strong

<-some resident posted online about how much they disliked the program, bad-mouthing it, etc. turns out the person was a problem resident in other ways so people took their rant with a grain of salt. UMichigan addressed it during interview day and told everyone they were taking steps to make their program less malignant. IIRC PD also just changed recently. (lurking derm resident). Thread: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/malignancy-at-michigan-dermatology.1296049/

< wish more programs would come to terms about their malignancy ;)

Ok, I will come out of lurking. I am a resident at UM. I'm not going to answer a ton of questions but wanted to chime in and say the online badmouthing was regarding conditions that are now totally different and the PD really made an effort to hear grievances/change. That person who did the posting was a sour character who was unhappy in general. There were also some blatant lies like our PD discourages people from getting pregnant (I think 9 people have had kids in the past 2 years). Is our program perfect? Of course not. Am I happy here? Yes I am. Did someone pay me/threaten me to post this, definitely not. If you come and interview here please ask quesitons about this - we will be 100% transparent with you. <Thank you for this!

Well this should be a good lesson learned for UMichigan. Often, we as applicants will get overlooked because of something on our application and programs (especially top tier) can just go to another applicant for an interview who checks all the boxes. The justification given (rightfully) is that they should not have to settle since they can get an applicant who has it all. Well UMichigan, while these rumors might not be true or the issues have been addressed, I can just rank a program that is not filled with drama and doesn't have people getting so worked up that they post online. X2

This "well well well michigan, i'm too good for you" post is the saltiest shit i've read on here. I'm not derm but i'm couples matching with derm and I hope you don't end up in my partner's program

take it for what it's worth, but I have friends who are current residents at the Michigan program. 1 loves it, 2 can't wait to get out

I think this would be true of many big programs or maybe that is overly pessimistic of me.

Or they matched residents who fell so low on their rank list that they're happy to "end up" at Michigan. I don't think it's anyone's number 1 program. << nahhh UM is definitely a backup school

<< there are some wayyyyy worse (toxic) programs than UM that are bragged about as being good. UM's just the one that people keep talking about because it's already out there in rumors. They honestly have improved considerably<what are some of the other toxic programs? x2

Miami, Pitt, USC

<-- in what way has USC been/is toxic?

I think there's a lot of people who state something with authority when either they don't really know themselves or when they're just being malicious and stating false stuff, but from my own limited personal understanding, these programs are the ones that repeatedly -- year after year -- are cited as "malignant." But I think people are using a broad definition of malignant and the reasons for being listed as "malignant" are different for each program -- NYU has been stated to have unhappy residents who do a lot of scut (as can be said about Columbia) with not the nicest attendings; Pitt has been stated to have somewhat uncaring attendings; USC is broadly a scandal-ridden school so not particularly dermatology department-related; Michigan has supposedly improved; UMiami they just work you hard eg, 7:00 am daily lectures (as can be said about UCSF). So I think malignant in derm programs is not like general surgery malignant, I think just one or more of hard working/unhappy residents/not very nice or caring attendings.

<<well said. I a lot of the "malignant" rep just means your are working a little harder in some way relative to some other programs. However, some of these top programs are top programs because they work you a little harder...forcing you to learn a little more. -- Agreed --> I would disagree slightly. Sometimes "working harder" doesn't mean learning more. It just means working harder. x3

<lol someone said lower that malignant means having morning lectures. Very broad range of definitions here

I think people have the expectation that derm residency should be a 9-5 cush job...? << I don't think that person was conflating 7 AM lectures with malignancy, I think it was a separate question

7 am lecture is a special type of torture but not malignant, agree.

idk I equate malignant with people (attendings, coresidents, PD, chair, etc) being actively mean and malicious. Like not caring about the residents or caring that they are unhappy. Long hours, early lecture = sucks but not necessarily malignant if people know about it in advance and sign up for it.

michigan so you don't have to live in the bronx

einstein so you can live in NYC and not ann arbor<lol any other thoughts on programs itself?

Michigan has ?malignant reputation FWIW

What kind of dermatologist do you want to be? Academics? Michigan hands down. Amazing network. Their residents go on to become Chairs of departments. Einstein for gen derm

Rochester MN is about 10-15F colder than Ann Arbor

Have also heard the rumor that Mayo gives more support staff. Rochester is more boring and colder than Ann Arbor with the qualifier that both are cold. Ann Arbor has stuff around it but Rochester is really isolated.

Current Residents said “Run”. Don’t be fooled

Nope, all residents told me they were very happy x3