Mayo Clinic School of Grad Med Educ-MN

Top tier: UPenn Harvard UCSF NYU Mayo Michigan, Emory, Henry Ford?) and Michigan and Mayo are not top tier. Would add Stanford, Hopkins, and UCLA instead)

would also add UTSW https://www.mdedge.com/dermatology/article/157864/practice-management/us-dermatology-residency-program-rankings-based/page/0/1 <<what is the difference between this article and the doximity rankings? Is there more validity to one vs the other? << lol, someone put UCLA in top tier (UCLA isn't even a Department, it's a Division) >> lol UCLA low tier for sure << realistically, probably middle to low, great overall health system but will always have hands tied and no real ability to grow

UCLA is a solid program, strong surgical training, lacks the super complex patients of some more intense programs but it depends on what you are looking for in your training << I don't think anyone's saying it's a bad program, just not a top tier, that's kind of silly

UCLA is the perfect example of a low-to-mid tier program that is nonetheless quite competitive given it's in California. Again, there's often a disconnect between prestige/quality of training and competitiveness. Location, location, location.

No way that Hopkins and UCLA would be top tier over Michigan and Mayo

Mid-tier: OHSU, Iowa, Minnesota, UPMC >> Would probably put MN as low tier? >> Thoughts? Why? >> Minnesota would probably be in same tier as OHSU, Iowa, UPMC. Iowa has great faculty, but I think it does suffer from being in a relatively non-diverse, predominately white, smallish-city in Iowa. Minnesota, OHSU, and UPMC are in more urban environments with at least UPMC and Minnesota having more ethnic / racial diversity, (Portland is super white as well). Also, no one should trust that MDedge nonsense x5

To be fair they tried to make an objective measure. Many of the opinions here leave out some good programs and add in top medical schools that are not top derm programs

MN, Iowa as med-high tier? Would drop UPMC to low tier (just feel like no residents really enjoy it there but maybe that's just me lol)? And Iowa usually as a top 20 program on almost all ranking systems (though you cant always trust these things so who knows). I think its one of those places that suffers in many peoples minds because they have a not-so great med school and its in the mid west, but the derm program is actually extremely well-respected independednt of those facts

1. Penn 2. UCSF 3. NYU 4. Harvard 5. Stanford 6. Northwestern 7. Emory 8. UTSW 9. Hopkins 10. Wash U 11. Mayo 12. Michigan 13. Iowa 14. HF 15. OHSU 16. Colorado 17. Minnesota 18. Utah 19. Cornell 20. Vanderbilt

<-What is this list based on? Its totally inaccurate. Hopkins and Vanderbilt are mid tier programs at best. No Yale? No UW? No Wisconsin? No Miami? No Sinai? Cornell over Columbia? UPMC is definitely mid to top tier. Also, tiers maybe, but I dont understand how you can possibly rank 1 vs. 3 vs. 8 off the cuff << yeah, 1-3 is pretty standard, gets messy with next 5 I was about to post how accurate this list is. Some of the programs listed above are no way in the conversation. You can maybe disagree with Wash U/Cornell to the left tho. I'd agree Vanderbilt too high too

<Yale for sure. x4 . Think that list is pretty accurate for top 20 minus Wash U, Cornell, and Vanderbilt. Would replace with Yale and Columbia. And Cleveland Clinic maybe. <<I question the order of some of these too. Hopkins is not a top 10 (but it is a top 20 probably). I agree that Sinai, miami, Columbia would also be top 20. Vandy should not be on that list and neither should a few others.

<How good are the following programs: UPMC, Hopkins, UCSD, Miami.

I think those are all decent programs (mid-top tier?). I would say that I typically view Hopkins as a mid-tier program (they don't have a lot of diversity in terms of training sites, though Hopkins itself is a great hospital). Miami is typically considered a Top 10 program - but they also are quite disorganized, old facilities, longer hours (Saturday clinics). UPMC takes a lot of MD/PhDs and has great Mohs training, though I never found their program actually attracts people who want to be there. UCSD is solid, somewhat basic-science focused. It's outshined by other programs in California (e.g. Stanford, UCSF, USC) and San Diego has great weather / beaches, though admittedly isn't the most exciting place to live / lacks a lot of arts / culture compared to most bigger cities in the United States.

name me a state with better Mexican food tho

are you Midwest?

no one understands the process. x3. Just because Mayo is considered "prestigious" doesn't mean it also isn't located in Rochester, MN. x2 "Ranking" doesn't always equate with competitiveness.

ha i dont think so, give an example? Example = Mayo Rochester. << this is the best circular logic i've seen in this spreadsheet lmfao <<snowflake wanted mayo interview obvs. <<< Yeah I'm sure they get near top rankings by sifting thru a thin stack compared to Sunny Place St. University. SMH

Even though Mayo Rochester's location may be less than ideal, they still invite and match stellar candidates, I wouldn't devalue this person's invite. <-- I don't mean to devalue, but I also think people "overvalue" invites from certain programs.

< yea it was pretty early

:( << there are programs that conflict with their dates so there is plenty of hope for the trickle effect. Keep in mind that the program is very small with 2 residents, so not a lot of interviews to begin with, so I wouldn't take it personally

What interviews conflict w/ Mayo FL?

Congrats! That's still better the rejection (which I got). Mayo didn't give me an interview for their medical school, and decided not to send me an outright interview for derm. Oh well, I guess I can apply to work there as an attending :'(

Ask yourself if you really want to live there tho lol

What if we didn't get rejected or waitlisted? Ultimate limbo? On the waitlsit for the waitlist?

lol

x2

lol i like how this was added before column A was even done . <<haha i saw the red flash there and assumed it was for mayo

that's why I thought I'd start with the red fill rather than putting people through the !!! new invite? wait

much appreciated

And none for Gretchen Weiners

I'm dying

Congrats! x3

thoughts on this program?

interviewed here last year and loved it! Great program in a great location, the biggest drawback is that it's a small ;dept and only 2 res per year

awesome thank you! how does this Mayo Clinic site compare to the Rochester one in terms of resources, research, pathology and future job prospects (academic and private)

didn’t interview at Rochester but it’s for sure not as much of a powerhouse. They do have good faculty and research, lots of support for research and access to Mayo patient databases in the entire Mayo system including Rochester; lots of admin support for research as well, like someone can write and submit your IRB stuff etc. as far as I remember

That's awesome! Are you guys internal or rotators by chance?<<nope, external no ties x3 << mayo-AZ doesn't have internals...

LOL I'm an idiot << Well, they do, but not for this cycle. I think their med school opened last year.

Yo anyone made contact about the hotel reservation?

<anyone else in the still no-news gang

yup

sorry guys

I haven't heard them sending waves of invites, why not just reject dafuq << They will string some people on for a while since there interview are not until January and other programs that overlap haven't released invites yet << yep, and heavy filter program

ugh y doe << what does heavy filter mean?

Please CTRL+Z to undo if copied over by accident

ah thank you!! just tried it for the two spaces to the left and I'm not sure I did it right? << no worries, it happens!

so... what if i didn't get invited but also didn't get rejected? this gonna be like wake all over again? lol x4

they should just reject us rather than staying in limbo x1 << Just checked last year's chat and rejections came in waves. << while you're checking chat...by this point were interviews similarly distributed? or what tf is going on? << After a couple of waves of rejections, there's Mayo limbo, which appears to be a kind of wait list in case someone scheduled from the first draft dropps... Actually looks like a formal waitlist email came out later.

WAKE me up inside (WAKE me up inside) Call my name and save me from the daaaaaark

LMAO I love you guys

WHEN ITS ALL OVER

Congrats!! Method of contact? Interview Dates?

ERAS

Research or Regular track? << I didn't get an invite, but PC said that they don't discriminate with interviews that way and they talk about it when the applicant gets to the interview. << awesome, that's cool. Congrats!

The derm gods have responded above!

Ugh, that moment when you see "AAMC email" and it's just confirmation for an upcoming prelim interview. << lol, so true

Yup x3 << Not to be "that guy" but I was at zero until yesterday, and then I got my first random. Your time will come!

<I got my first one today and it was Mayo so this process definitely makes sense /s

Please elaborate

feel like invites are long overdue for them << instead of factoring it on last year's contact dates, a better predictor has been when the interview dates are coming up. both hopkins & mayo-AZ are in January <thank you, that's helpful to consider :)

Still a bunch of December programs haven't invited yet

Johns Hopkins and Penn are both overdue for interview invites this year. Hopefully, Vanderbilt sends its regular ones out today << Mayo AZ is also pretty overdue << Also, to the neurotics among us, just know that Penn, Vanderbilt, and Johns Hopkins have historically sent out their invitations in batches

Penn's website says by 11/25

<Hopkins and penn - both of these places so far out of my reach it doesn't affect me << Try not to feel this way. I was on 0 for a long time and got 2 interviews at top 10 programs. My app is so regular that I assumed it was a mistake. The point is, you never know and no program is a reach.

<haha, Mt. Sinai practically sends after Christmas, but I like the wishful thinking!

12/6 in 2017, but yes, probs too early.

< You know, there is the entirety of the West Coast to consider. We're still in business hours << I don't think it's updated to say we're done, just a running tally (the same row is moved up) << just updated it << 10+ person, can you please press CTRL+Z to not erase the field that was there or use the function to get the past entry back << Thank you for reverting it back to original

If you want to do Mohs, it can be helpful to choose a program that has a Mohs fellowship (for instance, Stanford does not). You may want to also consider that certain top programs may be less likely to want to train their own residents. For instance, I've heard UCSF sometimes prioritizes non-UCSF residents for Mohs fellowship slots - in that case, the reasoning is they'd prefer to train people who'd be less likely to stay in the Bay Area as the market is already saturated there and they don't want to train more "competition" for their own practice. That's certainly not to say that any of those top programs won't be super supportive in your application to other top programs. It's honestly probably a case-by-case thing. << that's a BS made up story. They dont care if you stay in the area. You aren't "competition" for them. If that ridiculous postulation were true, no program would train people from their home program for fear of "competition" to their practice. Ridiculous. >> the competition piece is a common concern for Mohs surgeons, so it is true.. not sure who feels so confidents its not, it is, it is well known in the Mohs field that people dont want to train their own competitoin -- certainly not all mohs surgeons, but about 50% probably feel this way including some at academic institutions<< that may be true overall but the OP was specifically saying this about UCSf and it should have been a more general statement, because it doesnt only apply to UCSF. << seems like the OP is just trying to make UCSF look bad when, in actuality, it is probably one of the most supportive programs in the top 5 for Mohs

<--That's not true at all. UCSF basically always offers to keep their residents if they want to stay. I know that for a fact. They've had plenty of years where 2/3 or 3/3 fellows were UCSF residents.

OP here. This is based off discussions with a former UCSF resident who wanted to stay at UCSF but did not match there. I have no idea what this specific residents relationship with the department was...but can you tell you this is honest and true information I discussed with said resident. UCSF is a great and supportive training program. And this person did match elsewhere at a great program. Honestly not trying to mislead anyone. << one residnet not matching at their program doesn't mean "they dont like to keep their own residents." That was likely a resident specific issue. It's not helpful when you use broad/sweeping statements. <--- OP again. The way I was explained this was this was the "culture" at UCSF for Mohs - and same logic was applied to other internal applicants that year. I also personally know my own program's Mohs fellowship director prefers not to take internal candidates - though he's very supportive of getting them matched elsewhere. His rationale is more that he prefers to bring in "new" people to the program, rather than preventing "competition", though our metro area is also admittedly saturated with Mohs surgeons and it is difficult to impossible to find a full time position. I've also heard of other programs - like Mayo Rochester for instance - highly favor internal applicants. It's an institution-specific thing.

I will second the fact that its common knowledge that many places don't want to train their competition for Mohs. I have no knowledge about which specific programs / if this applies to UCSF, but just backing up the OP in saying that this line of thinking would not be out of place as it is prevalent in the Mohs field <<To echo this, this is true for many subspeciality fellowships in many different fields. New fields that are not recognized fellowships yet often have fellows sign noncompetes today which was true for some Mohs programs 15-20 years ago (and probably still true for the some that are not ACGME). Now, most fellowships can't have official noncompetes, but they will try to pick applicants with that in mind...medicine is a business.

this is true and has actually been studied/reported in the literature. https://journals.lww.com/dermatologicsurgery/Citation/2019/10000/Micrographic_Surgery_and_Dermatologic_Oncology.15.aspx