Mass General Brigham-MA

don't think it's that high

Let's say 800 people apply... they probably interview 40-50 so max they're inteviewing is 5% of candidates... no? I mean ball park << when you say AND, you're multiplying stats right, so im going to assume that at least 90% of people missed out on all of Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, AND Penn

So to make this simpler, what are the chances of getting an interview at one the top 5, say UCSF, Harvard, Stanford, NYU, and Penn?

how many people do you think get all 5 of the top 5 places? 4/5? 3/5?

~10%, ~12%, ~15% respectively I'd say? ---- Probably 15-20 people get 5/5 for the top 5. I've realized that it's mostly the same people getting all the top 10 interviews." <- coming from one of these schools i can tell you that this is not the case and the number with all 5 is much fewer.

I'm sure there are some godly people out there with all of the top 5 plus the next top 5, and ideally they will drop some of them for the rest of us :p<<<guilty :) but have trickled many invites so wishing everyone the best of luck

sigh managed to get NYU/harvard/stanford/UCSF...and no penn...and ive lived near penn my whole life. idk what went wrong there, was my top choice

that was a stupid question on my end. what even is high/mid/low tier? like top 10/40/100 or something? but to harken back to your situation, the only things I can think of that could be adversely affecting you other than being from a "low" tier school would be not taking a research year / limited research or your geographical area. <I agree with you. I can't really think of much else besides geography and below average research. I have read all but one of my letters and they were strong. I really don't know what to do at this point.

I'm sorry, friend. I'm assuming it is then the combination of geography and below avg. research. But I'm also SURE you're going to get interviews. Just hang in there! Nothing else you can do now, and with a 260 you clearly worked hard already.

Yes minus the 260 :D

Glad to have you on my team << 260+ can give you that same "top tier" school curse where some programs may think you're out of their league. Hang in there, we're with you

im <260 but PhD (non-research track) and it doesn't look good. low tier school, did good aways, got LoR, SILENCE, it's crazy that this is happening.

0 interviews at all? <aside from internal no << did you get interviews from your aways?<--any updates for you?

top tier med school, 260+ Step 1, 15 publications, great LORs, 0 interview invitations. I'm devastated

Yooooo that SUCKS. Are there a lot of applicants from your school with your stats or better?

yes. double digit applicants, all similar .

damn I'm at a double digit school with way worse stats...now I know why I'm not getting invites

dang OP of this cell, man I feel for you. That is rough, but there is no way you do not match and get a lump sum of interviews at some point.

TBH, OP, if you're at a Harvard/Yale/Stanford etc. school, chances are you're going to match your home program. You're fine.

As someone from a top school with a top home program, not true. I wish that I could match into my program, but the schools want a residency class filled with the best folks from other great institutions to add influx of new idea, skills, and connections to the class. This is true ESPECIALLY if there are a ton of us.

im really starting to realize how big a factor the # of people applying from my school is

# of people applying is a factor but applicants from top schools are typically safer with fewer invites at top programs compared to non-top school candiates with mid/low tier interviews. Top programs want applicants from top schools so you're competing with a small pool of applicants for all the spots at Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Penn/UCSF etc.

This . If you look at the people in the Y/H/S/P etc. schools, 80% of residents are from that program, 15% from another Y/H/S/P etc., and MAYBE 1-2 a year from a more "random" school—and that person 100% either had a 100th percentile Step 1 score and/or connections. Also, if you look at their match lists from the past couple years, not a SINGLE one of those programs had an unmatched applicant. So not sure why you're "devastated" when you have a 100% chance of matching—and likely at your home or another top program (unless your personality sucks).

Swap out Yale for NYU, and you have the proper list of top programs.

I seriously dont know how this process works. thats insane . <<Not OP (have way lower stats than that lol), but as someone who goes to a top 5 place I can say with fact that there is not a 100% chance. I do not know how all top programs work, but the fact is even though we have more residents than the average program, the number of applicants from our school is greater than th enumber of spots. On top of that, our school does not rank its own first (but yes 1/2 the porgram tends to be our own/research/rotators). It is a top programs and it wants the best from the country. If you look at our match list it looks AMAZING, but it never mentions the people who do not match. I know for the last 3 years, there was 1 or more unmatched derm. We're all in this shit together

<--- I review applications. While there are some programs that highly value Step 1 score -- I think applicants overestimate how much most programs care about these things. I don't think there are any functional differences betweeen applications with a 240 versus 260 on Step 1. Again, the more important differentiators are clinical grades, letters of recommendation, research, and personal statement (probably in that order). << Agreed, and same is true for whether Top/Mid med school

< It's really heartening to know that, thank you! Do you know if most programs feel the same way you and the program you're at does about scores? And what programs really do care a lot about scores?

< does anyone know if school look at clinical grades out of 6 or 7 rotations? (aka including neurology or not?)

not op, but I'm going to add this to the tab he/she created now! these are all great. i'm glad you think it's great, i was going to do do this anyway and post it on reddit so now maybe i'll have more data too

that sounds awesome!! thanks!!

<< These are awesome suggestions and I love the idea of the sheet! -SD

It's always good to hear from you, SD. I can't help but think there's a bit more panic and despair without you. x2

< OP: I didn't want to make that box any larger than it already is lol, but yes I'm defintely female and I sense you are too? all the exclamation points I use must have given me away :')

I am as well! I think the tip off for me might be the many apologies!

LOL yes that and how supportive you are (not that men can't be supportive)!

Thank you! I really appreciate your initiative on getting the sheet started! Hopefully it will help some people in the future. Not to be too morbid, but I feel kind of like a dwarf in Moria, being closed in on by orcs, leaving a historical account of my story for posterity.

LMAO you have no idea how hard that made me laugh rn :') And of course, but you deserve all the credit for the idea!! I hope it helps others too! << im op of the list and i am a male and i have no idea wtf is going on here

sometimes there are trolls within the mines of moria

I'm the above commentor and I meant OP as in OG OP (A7). Are you B7? Thanks again for the suggestions, and sorry if my comment was confusing! << yes this is B7 and a male, im just gonna chill over here lol

Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry I called you a troll. I jumped to a terrible conclusion. This is the closest I have ever gotten to an anonymous online fight and I hope I have learned my lesson. Thank you for your suggestions! They are great! Let's find a place to add those metrics! << yea no problem, i just added suggestion #8

lol glad we sorted that out and thanks for #8! :)

I got Harvard and NYU RTM calls x 4 <lol

pretty sure NYU said specifically that they would not be contacting us

They just said that to the scrubs

so you mean when the PD said that to the entire interview day, she decided we were all scrubs? lmao

<did not find this to be the case at all, also rotated there (and full disclosure, rejected with no interview). This feels like its spreading misinformation... << I would not just dismiss this as fake news. I rotated there as well and also felt like this PD was not present in residents' experience. Wasn't a big surprise to me given how big the program is, until I rotated at some other big programs and saw the difference in PD <uh, this is just not true at all the residents love the PD there wtflol

are all of you guys talking about harvard or utsw?<< Harvard. Residents don't like the PD there. <UTSW, I have never met hardvard PD; interviewwed at UTSW, he is an odd mofo. Other faculty isnt exactly pleasant either. UTSW is proud of their program though. Kim Yancey (the chair) is pretty cool and nice; I wonder if people have the same read as I do

ah ok! I was just wondering because I have heard conflicting things about the harvard pd and didn't know what to make of it. I didn't rotate at harvard or UTSW (and didn't interview at UTSW either) so I can't add to the discussion but maybe someone else here as a read on the UTSW PD they could share with you!

Agreed, just another example of fake news on the spreadsheet

this is what everyone says when they are butt hurt about their program being talked about negatively. Seems like theres no negatives to any programs!

Not misinfo, heard similar about Harvard PD. She's out of touch and awkward, doesn't seem to really know residents x4

< Could I ask where you got the 12 weeks of electives from? Per the website, prelims have only 2 months of elective time.<current intern. I have 11weeks i guess and then 4 weeks of back up call. First block of that i only got called in twice

that's actually pretty sweet if that's the case for every prelim. Something to ask about at the interview for sure

Cons - you work hard. Patient load always at maximum.

well.. depends. do you want to do Mohs?

Even if you want to do mohs, if you have a regional preference that is swaying you towards the mid tier than I would still go with the mid tier bc Mohs fellowship interviews have regional preferences outside of top tier

Mohs fellowship is all about connections AND there were multiple small programs I interviewed at where the in-house spot goes to their residents if they want it OR they are so well-trained they do mohs occasionally in practice (at an academic center) without fellowship. For bread and butter derm, non-top programs are better in my opinion. Also having a PD/Chair go to bat for you is massive for Mohs.

< I know people who are planning to do academics/research and still are ranking mid tier (top 20?) over some top 5. There is life outside of residency for normal people, so if you have a reason you should do it

If you want a job in a highly desireable city/at a competitive job (not at academic) it does help to go to a "respected" program which could mean top 5. Helps get connections. If you want to do private practice in a smaller city, probably makes no difference.

Meh. What matters is a PD or chair who is going to pick up the phone and call everyone they know in XYZ city to get you that job. AND, importantly, that the PD or chair won't judge you for wanting a private practice job and will still put in as much effort helping you get that job.

Don't be dumb. The "bougie" pp centers love posting about how their doctors are trained at Hopkins or Harvard. Why do you think TV doctors all trained at Harvard? 95% won't care, but the bougie ones with the best payor mixes do.// << This is very sad but true, for the most competitive private practices name matters a ton :( If you want rural or smaller city or less competitive market, it won't matter where you go//...right, but who actually wants to go practice in those places? Most specialties have a "doctor shortage" because no one wants to live in those bad areas. Everyone wants to live in DC, Boston, SF, NYC, etc, so you do yourself a diservice by going to a lower program. Basically HAVE to do a fellowship to work in a competitive city.//

incredibly out of touch. that program is low key malignant see the name and shame

What did it say? Didn't receive - x4 What happened?

They sent out an email an hour before NRMP saying that "UM Frost Dermatology will not be fortunate enough to train all of you talented and wonderful people, but I am confident that we will all be colleagues in years to come." They were trying to be positive but it was very stressful right before the NRMP email... -- Thanks for posting the email. yeah, that is stressful!

It was just so not on the pulse. They should really be ashamed of what they have become<<

He was trying to be nice...dont be dramatic

miami is not low key malignant, they are high key malignant... those pompous asshats don't even interview their own medical students... last year they had a med student match harvard that THEY didn't even interview... x1

<where did these people match?

I think UChicago and Yale guys are at Harvard

<< outing derm program nepotism, for example, students who match at a parent's place of employment, is arguably an important step moving forward to discourage future foul play. thank you to all brave whistleblowers! <Yeah, the tier list is pointless. No need to give it any thought. While it is pointless, I really like there is an explanation why we should move those 3 programs down... TBH the explanation was pretty good haha << There is also a lot of bias since it is easier to try to move programs like Hopkins or Vandy higher on the list since those names have a better brand name... tier list is so silly in a field like derm where the vast majority of us are going to be in private practice. At which point 99% of patients don't give a shit where you did residency. << haha, someone deleted a comment about Harvard nepotism

#REF!

<<I have no issue with nepotism. If I have kids who want derm residency, I will definitely make phone calls and cash in favors. That’s how the world works. FWIW I’m a derm resident who matched without nepotism.

just because something DOES happen doesn't mean something SHOULD happen. yes, that's "the way the world works" but is arguably NOT the way the world should work.

Is this for Harvard? I don’t think anyone has heard back yet from there? <<Yup. I don't want to piss them off but I do need to know the date...

on the opposite end, looking at the list stressed me out because places I ranked high others didn't and places I ranked low others ranked high. Makes me wonder if I messed up my ROL x2

Its not really a surprise that people are ranking places like Harvard, Penn, Stanford, UCSF, etc. highly...

mrw no one is ranking my #1 as #1 or #2, which means i might match there and i would be very happy :))

yeah I don't think anyone will get off waitlist this year x2

Jan 17 has no conflicts, ain't nobody cancelling a Stan interview

very unlikely

You guys forget that January 16 (their internal date) might have cancellations. Overlaps with Harvard and others

don't think stanford has a large applicant class and also don't think they're precluded from the 17th

small applicant class makes me wonder why they don't just open up January 16 to externals as well. Only 7 internal applicants + 3 rotators?

Wow that's a lot less than I would have expected. Does anyone know how many they interview on their external date?

I don't know where you got those numbers, but you're wrong. Stanford has a fair number of fellowship applicants as well.

that makes more sense

<< N=1 but I had AOA, 250s/270s, good letters, and here I am unmatched x1

sorry to hear that. are you soaping? << Had 1 soap interview, had lots of people email/call to support me, no offer<aw im so sorry, what do you think went wrong? << no idea, I think they just interviewed a lot of people and liked them more than me I guess

maybe personality? I myself am an introvert, and I feel like people in derm treat introversion like a disease << they're missing out. sending you a virtual hug. << thanks. It sucks to get hopes up a 2nd time and fail, but I'll just do my prelim and apply again. Failing that, research fellowship << can't imagine how difficult it must be to have been disappointed a second time. glad you have a plan, and best of luck my friend<<I'm in the same spot as you, interviewed yesterday for a SOAP spot and was really hoping it would work out. As much as I'd love a spot to be open in round 2 I know it's unlikely. Just wanted you to know you're not alone in this process. Best of luck to you!

Do you guys mind sharing what program you interviewed yesterday? I myself am PGY1 in prelim right now soaping and didn't get a spot in round 1; how do we know if SOAP spots get filled for that specific program?< The list gets updated at the end of each round; each round lasts 2 hours then i guess it gets updated at 2 PM EDT< yes it gets updated at 205

How many intervieews did you have AOA/ 250/270 are crazy stats. << I had 9 interviews, 2 of them med-derm <<sorry you didnt match. I had 260s+ on steps and didnt match but was able to match to spot during my prelim year

How many interviews did you have? << 9 total, 2 med-derm, 2 from my aways, 1 from home. So I got only 4 random derm interviews

<I don't have an answer but dont forget reputation is an extrinsic measure that doesn't tell you much. It is also highly contentious as this sheet has shown over the past months. Clinics, patient population, speciality exposure, fellowship match, research can all be considered individually according to what matters to you. If rep matters though you can factor that in, but again it is super contentious, mostly research based, and seems made up half the time (aka loudest ppl on google sheet determine the accepted rep)