Mass General Brigham-MA

good point. that was insensitive

rank #3 > rank #2 still doesn't make sense though also lmfao at the predominance of respondents ranked ivies first, so there's obviously a bias here

LOL

unequal number, because people adding to it. Stanford just jumped 4 up in like 15 minutes // ha, Harvard just did it in short period too, smh

yes

< how do you know? Is there a list of SOAP spots?

i saw it on the 2018-2019 spreadsheet around match time

Anyone know what happened with the IU program? I heard it may have been an ERAS submission error since they are otherwise regarded as a good program. Has any derm program ever had to SOAP all spots?

So I still have a chance to match into derm?

meh weird if it was a error cause I heard they matched like 1 of the spots and others were SOAP

ooooh i didnt know they matched 1 << didn't they match someone from Harvard? Was that through SOAP?

yes i think so

wow a Harvard med student didn't match? << I heard a couple of harvard people didnt match derm... << HOW DID THEY LIKE THEM APPLES

wow that's crazy! did they have disciplinary problems?

yeah one of them got DUI

the one that matched IU or unmatched?

IU

lol damn

how was this info even leaked lmao << a resident on one of my aways had just come back from leave.....for a DUI. Their mug shot came up on Google next to their professional headshot.

how long a leave do you have to take for a DUI? Not that I'm planning on getting one lol

LMAO, also its amazing they let him/her come back

wait you're saying the Harvard student that matched at IU got a DUI?

didn't UMASS or UCONN match all IMGs, was that through SOAP or intentional? << I heard from a few reliable sources that UMass intentionally matched 2 IMGs and took 1 resident who was switching from another specialty at UMass. They did not SOAP and from their website it looks like one of the first times ever they didn't take at least 1 of their own students. Not to say non-traditional applicants don't deserve a shot, but there are many fantastic US MD seniors who didn't match last year.

Indiana matched 1 of their 5 spots last year without the SOAP. They have 5 spots every 3rd year (back to 4 this year).

so what's wrong with the program? How come they had to SOAP? <I rotated there - there was one mean attending but everything else seemed good - not sure how I’d explain it being the only program that needed to SOAP and having 80% of its spots go unfilled (before the SOAP)

what does the rejection email look like?

direct quote: "you suck, your application sucks, maybe in another life" <x2

jk it was nicer but similar

Anyone know how many Harvard students applying this year?

No idea about specifics, but it's been pretty consistently around 10 per year. <anyone waiting in limbo for harvard?

< Am I the only rotator who got rejected?! Guess my application AND my personality sucks! /s but not really

they definitely do NOT interview all their rotators. That’s why I didn’t go.x2

My PD specified not to rotate here for an interview since it does not change you chances alot.

That's probably true and good advice from your PD!

PD from which program? x2 was that your PDs personal opinion or did he / she talk to / know someone in the department?

Any HMS students or people who took a research year there get rejected? I heard they interview all their internals + researchers

I'm not sure if any got rejected this year, but they do not automatically interview all internals and researchers

I've never heard of one who didn't get interviewed

Anyone heard of someone getting an interview after a rejection? Or is trickle only for limbo status? <only limbo or WL, rejection is final

Yeah they keep replying and asking why I'm ranking them #1 since I didn't even interview there <lol x3

<Harvard for baller academic/research connections and opportunities, lots of med derm, less clinically heavy; NYU tons of clinics/Bellevue which you'll get baller, academics also good, UCSF work hard af but has a bit of everything and is great; Stanford is like the most supportive of the top 5 and will likely have the most good-feeling experience ... idk I'm a PGY1 that interviewed some of these so I don't actually know anything <<thanks for your insight! what do you mean harvard is less clinically heavy? like more inpatient experience? <<there's less resident clinic autonomy, you work a lot with attendings in specialty clinic and it's less ownership of your own patients, but it's like that anyways at the top academic programs as opposed to a small community program, just heard it's more accentuated at Harvard<<interesting, so are residents mostly just presenting patients and writing notes rather than coming up with management plans? <i imagine yes since you're seeing super complex patients at a tertiary care center<dang, fair enough. thank you! << "just present and write notes instead of coming up with management plans"? Is that an actual, serious comment? You think the residents just present the patient then stand there looking blankly at the attending waiting for them to just hand them a treatment plan? If you see complex patients, you learn how to come up with complex plans

< thanks for the input! What about penn?

PGY1. Loved Penn program (didn't match there but had it ranked #1). Amazing faculty, good autonomy, everyone seemed happy. Great exposure to procedures as well (which I felt was a weakness at Harvard)

Stanford - happy residents, assume great clinical experience (although no one seems to emphasize this as much about Stanford); UCSF - one of best if not best clinical experience in the country for complex derm, work you very hard though. Others I don't know as well. Go with your gut and where you felt like the personalities of the residents were most similar to yours.

Penn is the best all-round plus the procedural skill > Harvard. Stanford would be my #2 for the supportive vibe and innovation.

UCSF and Penn are definitly the two best/most well-rounded programs in the country. All the other "top" programs have significnt weaknesses (i.e stanford and harvard have weak derm surg, etc). NYU residents seem to work the hardest and seemed to me to be the least happy.

fml looks like my parents should have had more kids

LOL same. But I'm just saying this to say that you REALLY shouldn't feel bad / wonder why you're not getting an interview to top programs. There is SO much backdoor dealings etc that go on behind the scene that in reality almost none of the slots are open to just a good applicant without any STRONG connections of some sort. <- another example: one of the UCSF residents has an uncle who is a dermatologist at UCSF

LMAOOOO this is too good

But I thikn the IN ADDITION point is important, having a connection but being mediocre doesnt work as far as I can tell.

<so if we got an interview to a top program without being internal or rotator, do we assume someone had a connection or said something on your behalf?

no, assume you just got an invite, but know chances are low you won't match :)

That's not nice >:(. OP, you've earned that interview, especially without obvious connections. You should go rock it and show everyone what you're made of.

sometimes the truth isn't nice :/

Or maybe you shouldn't take out your frustriations on random people online.<<with that mindset, people wouldnt match from external schools then

not true, the girl who matched penn whose brother is a derm resident at harvard went to northwestern. and to the other person, that's pretty presumptous of you - I'm just being honest. How you decide to take that honesty is on you, not me.<<well thats exactly what im saying, barring no other "real connections" how do people match at a program they are not from.

to be clear, outside of the top 10 programs it's a whole different world. This level of neoptism is almost unique to these programs. <- equivalent of legacy status for undergrad

I knew an applicant who's father-in-law was the chair of a derm department....so needless to say they got an interview at that institution. Other "ties" are research. Some programs really favor their research fellows....who can spend one year or MORE doing research for the department. Often unpaid or super low pay. There's a lot of politics. I'm sure other fields are similar but because derm is small, the effects feel (and probably are amplified).

to add another great story, my friend told me that one of the people who matched to cornell last year? her mom is derm at cornell. connections are everything!

<< first get the interview invites, then worry about ranking. << I think its reasonable to think about now, especially considering the possibility of having IV overlaps and having to drop a program

After talking with the lay public (my parents), going to a program with brand name recognition helps even if you're in private practice, since that's one the things people consider when choosing their doctor. But I have also been told med school prestige matters more.

Brand recognition and tier don't always match up. Hopkins and Vanderbilt are probably better known as names to average americans compared to UCSF. << probably matters more to people more familiar with medicine. Most don’t care about where a private practice doc trained. And echo that lay people don’t know strong training

The public knows about 10 big names. They care how nice their doc treats them.

Yea i would argue most patients do not know where their doctor went to med school or residency (or what residency is). I know many IMG docs who have busier practices and higher patient ratings because they have put more time in to hustle for their practice than their ivy league collegues.

<Another consideration is the type of training. You get exposed to cool rare things in top places, but their programs may advertise that majority go into academics and that is where their connections are. Lower tier places advertise the opposite since their connections are in other practice settings. <-- Yeah, this is not accurate. "Private practice connections" are mostly local (e.g. in the metro area a particular practice is in), regardless if a program is a "top" program or lower ranked. Having a "top" brand name attached to your name would still be valuable in private practice (both locally and outside the metro region of your program) - private practices like advertising "Harvard-trained" doctors, etc. It's silly, but a small consideration. Point being, lesser ranked programs are not going to have any more connections in private practice compared with a highly ranked program.

I have met at least 2 people who are not ranking it 1 or 2 haha

with all due respect, that seems crazy to me. Biggest name, amazing faculty, PD with resident focus, research, etc

none of that matters when there are so many big egos and assholes there

< LOL at people who want to match there discouraging others from doing so. There are not egos/assholes at Harvard

bruh

There are egos and assholes everywhere. Harvard has some, but not as much as you might think.

I've also talked to a good number of people who ranked/will rank Harvard lower on their list. A lot of them have ties to other regions, and for those who don't, they felt that another top 5 program fit their interests better. There's also something to be said about Havard's residency program being "shared" among 3 different dermatology departments; there is invariably a less unified vision for the program.

Are people replying to this email?

LOL <if some folks are leaving right after or together I would be down to share the Uber to the airport

I just emailed the coordinator to see whether she thinks it's possible to make the 6:40pm JetBlue flight

if you're talking about the Harvard interview, the coordinator confirmed that the AM session (starting at 7:30am) is scheduled to end at 1:30pm.

is there an AM and PM session? I thought the email said the interview day goes from 7a-5pm? Although my email said to arrive at 9:15am...?

I think there are 7:30, 9:30, and 12:30 sessions. I was told to arrive at 7:20.

So I should ask when the 9:30 session ends but presumably 3:30?

probably<<confirmed with coordinator that 9:30 session will end at 3:30, not sure about the other ones but i think we can assume they will last around the same length.

<similar struggle for me, ended up booking two flights in event I can't get out early enough.

which two flights?

booked the 6:40p jetblue

The UCSF pre-interview dinner was amazing. I would try to attend it. I thought it was 10/10 better than Harvard's. Just sayin.

Harvard and Penn are very similar academic programs with strong emphasis on research and inpatient derm. NYU has better clinical volume/training. << NYU has probably the most "different" vibe of those - great clinical training...but a very large program with MANY facult, long hours, and historically not the happiest residents. Penn is great - probably a bit more "supportive" and "coddling" than UCSF or Harvard.

~30 << not true

more? less?

def more. they have 8ish spots. << wahhhhh I wanted this one!!!

probably closer to 60 invitations

seems like a lot. their yield is probably high <lol no WAY is it 60

It's probably the same as most other programs, ~40. But if you look at the match list from last year, for example, not a single person on that list wasn't connected in some strong way. So likely applicants are ranked before interviews and it doesn't change much after interviews.

Fake news. Not everyone last year was connected to the program

Who wasn't? x2

Even the non-Harvard rotators had gone to Harvard for undergrad << This.

This also applies to Penn. x2 << Basically applies to every top program in the country

Based on my extensive sleuthing, it 100% applies to Harvard, Penn, and Yale. As in you're SOL if you don't have a strong connection of some kind. To a much lesser degree, it applies to Stanford and UCSF

Definitely less with UCSF since they don't have an undergraduate college :)

but you have to have CA ties

Stanford and UCSF to a much lesser degree yes, but CA ties are almost required

disagree no california ties and got UCSF

aren't you a special cookie? We're talking about people who matched, not interview invites you snowflake

I was going to say what this person to the left said, but not as rudely. Yes I'm talking about people who MATCH, not get invited for an interview.

lol got it. thanks for the non-rudeness person #2 i get what ur saying<<what exactly do strong connections mean for these top programs? Like regional, rotating there etc?

reposting from edit history:

congrats superstars!!! are any of you external without any connection/away?

myself x5

that's so awesome, congrats friend!

thank you amigo/a!

Are you guys from other top schools though or have 260+ Step scores? There must be some method to this madness, it can feel so random sometimes x2

I think if it were just 260+ they would still have a lot of work to do to pick candidates. Doubt a place like HMS has to go just based off stats to pick their bunch.

Not true, there's only around 40 applicants with step 1 scores > 260 and they likely interview around 40 candidates" >> as an interviewee, I can tell you the assumptions above are not true x4

what assumption? x2<<needing 260+ step scores.

<hey guys is harvard a good program; first time hearing about it

I think they’re relatively new, I wouldn’t rank personally

yeah my PD asked if its a community program when I mentioned it

My PD didn't recognize the name, is it DO? << I thought it was in the Caribbean, I didn't apply for that reason.

oh SHIT it was spelled with an H in the front; been calling it ARVARD

either way, I think the program is low on brand recognition. who would go there?

yeah the interview date conflicted with a race in my city (which I organized, for just myself) so I declined it

yeah probably not worth the money of flights and hotels, tbh. good call. <I've seen ads for this school inbetween my youtube vids I think

:'D >> Heard Harvard is on probation and might not get accredited next year :/ Pretty poor reputation

LOLOL

Rotated at Harvard. They have overall good breadth of training with MGH, Brigham, BIDMC, few other sites. Lots of research opportunities and seems supported by the department. I found the resident surgical skills, dermatoscopy skills, and skin cancer screening skills were subpar at least in comparison to my home program. The department is great and has lots of leaders in derm - but it has a bit of of a very "old-school" feel with lots of white-haired, Caucasian males at the top of the leadership chain. It definitely has an old-school, East Coast medicine feel. This was sort of a turn off for me. Some of the faculty are primarily research clinicians who work 1/2 day a week in cinic - some of these attendings have really not maintained good clinical skills / not particularly interested in clinical medicine and it clearly showed. The number of faculty is huge - which means many residents don't get a lot of exposure to working 1:1 with a smaller group of faculty (there a few expections - for instance, Kroshinky who runs the inpatient service and is just overall the best person ever). Overall, my take home from my experience there was that Harvard has good training and great research opportunities, but that "prestigious" programs aren't necessarily everyone's preference / despite Harvard's own self-perception as "the holy grail of medicine", you can get similar high-quality of training at other less prestigious institutions.

did you get an interview?

no

oh no! you seem really nice, I'm sorry. thanks for the write up! x 2

< Is Kroshinsky nice? I've heard not as positive comments about her, but I much prefer to believe she's as nice as some people have said. Did you interact with Mostaghimi or Chen while you were there? I thought they are both big on inpatient? Were they nice? << Kroshinsky is a superstar x3

are you 3 internals?

not me. Did a research year with her

oh so you're matching Harvard? ;)

<-- Korshinsky is nice. So is Mostaghimi. I didn't work with Chen.

thank you!

Dr Chen is seriously the nicest person on the planet, encourages even med student autonomy in clinic/inpatient

Have heard conflicting things about Mostaghimi though. Heard he can be hard to get along with from an external rotator there

Are you serious?? Hard to get along with in what way? He seems like he'd be so nice and funny! << seemed judgmental and not very friendly << maybe he just has RBF (resting bitch face lol)?? I really don't want to believe he's not as nice as seems :(

< did your friend who was a rotator recieve an interview? << yup

<< white-haired white dude leadership is a thing at a lot of derm programs.... suprised it's still a thing I thought we were in more modern times

Did your school have grades or P/HP/H for preclinicals? I feel that schools with a more emphasis for grades end up with more serious students. I don't know whether that's associative or causative.

nah we're P/F. maybe we're just boring

< don't get me started on the bullshit that is grading. my school has restricted honors for the top ten percent of the clerkship overall, while other schools have a set number you have to score above. talking to other students on away rotations really opened my eyes to how much each school is different and how little programs care besides seeing the "H" next to the subject.

I went to a school with unrestricted honors. After getting some of my feedbacks, such as ([Name] was one of X students getting honors for this rotation), I realized that in the end, only 15-20% of students ended up getting honors anyway. They set the goalpost (specificed ahead of time) knowing that anyone could meet that standard, but very few people would actually make it. Ultimately, I think this was the right approach because people could still work hard for themselves, regardless of whether or not they met the challenge. << yep this is a great attitude to take to it if the goalposts are properly set! someone's schools had to get 90% on evals, 80% on shelf, unrestricted number. i was like....lol what.

Thoughts on UCSF testing straight P/F grading for clinical clerkships?

In general, I don't think UCSF has an amazing match list compared to Harvard, Penn, and Stanford if we remove the in-home matches. I do think that it will make things harder for the PDs << it might also skew towards the name. P from Harvard? Who even cares, it's Harvard. No H from MidTierStateU? LOL what a pleb. So i dont think UCSF policy will really change anything in the MSPE. << also would reduce the stress level for clinical clerkships. << P/F curriculums may have shifted pressure onto Step 1, could P/F clerkships put more pressure on Step 2?

possibly. Or more pressure on the LORs

Maybe they will move us over to EM's standardized letters of evaluation. I know that some admins in dermatology wanted to do that this year but they were not able to do so. >> 2 cells over in E

I understand that most derm PD's or people reading apps have a sense of individual schools and what the typical grade distributions are << it was made better this year by including graphs in the MSPE

really? I hate those graphs. fucks over half the people in the class << i mean im the OP in the cell to the left. it clearly shows <20 people in my class getting honors directly next to the text for my evaluations so IF, and big IF, the person actually reads why i didn't get honors, they can see that it was only a select few who did. idk, from the underachiever pov, it looks good. << Point taken

i think it'll start depending more on school prestige and LOR maybe like you said, and of course step scores. good school prestige begets good LOR so it's a trickle-down system all the way to the interviews haha. holy shit i forgot about SLOE, imagine that in Derm! hell no, fuck SLOEs. Hate being reduced to a single number/grade as if I were a cow << lol look at the charting outcomes and step score distribution, or like filters that exist already. i hate it too but sometimes its gotta be done

I'd rather be evaluated on the quality of my LORs than another hoop to jump through. Step 1 (and to a lesser extent, Step 2) is enough of an objective measure.

But still, you'd be surprised. In the state of California, Stanford and UCSF had middling average Step I scores compared to places UCLA and UCSD, probably because the students knew that Step I wouldn't matter as much for them in the perspective of other program directors would be happy to have some Stanford/UCSF students as part of the program.

do we have official numbers on these? I don't doubt that it exists, but it'd be nice to know the extent of the disparity of avg Step 1 scores of accepted derm applicants from top vs mid schools

I don't know, I go to a top 3 school. I got a slightly above average score for derm, and my Dean and PD told me that I should be "competitive anywhere" although they did warn me that the places that I'd get interviews may seem random and that I may not get all the interviews that I wanted (and I didn't)

Also at a top 3 with derm average step and don't have many interviews (but others here do). maybe trickles will come

<< prestige man, prestige. its exactly what you said, they'd love to have a person from x program on their resident and potentially staff roster. for us mid-low tier schools, we gotta kick ass on step 1 and etc to have a shadow of your position, potentially with not as good LORs << do we need more hoops to jump through, though? I don't think the answer to leveling the playing field for students not from the top tier schools is to create yet another metric. We have to do so much already, from getting a good Step 1 score, to kicking ass on clerkships, doing research, etc << true man. someone down the sheet suggested having a set number of programs to apply to, like 20 or so, i think that might really be playing with fire and lead to a LOT of people unmatched or SOAPing, both applicants and programs << for sure. we'd need a transition period or something. couldn't ERAS spend a fraction of their $$$ to hire a data scientist to study the optimal number of programs to apply to? << they did that, for derm it was high 30s. let me see if i can find link

https://students-residents.aamc.org/applying-residency/filteredresult/apply-smart-data-consider-when-applying-residency/ i think that is what we are discussing - meme

Anybody know if multiple batches of invites went out for them in prior years or just one?

I bet only 1 day WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF< damn wanted this so bad Are dates confirmed 1/9 and 1/16?

yes <are people wanting the 9th ? No one has heard back re their date yet right (i will lose my mind if I can't go)

have not heard back yet

Just heard back <eek im scared. what time did you reply, I think I emailed in five min.

responded in ~3min< are you ninth or sixteenth? <anyone not hear back yet...? <just heard back for 1/9. responded in 3 min<still haven't heard back for the ninth and responded in four wahhh

also 1/9

pretty sure we all asked for 1/9 lol 1/16 is a shitshow< just got the 9th

same! 1/9

why would 1/16 be a shitshow??? Penn and Harvard ???

just that week has a lot going on on both coasts and midwest

Congrats! San Diego is so incredible x 1

Got skunked by the top 10, but got my top choice! << same here! x3

any rotators get an invite?

yes i did

wooooot San Diegoooooooo

Doubled my derm invite total today!

congrats!! x2