Hosp of the Univ of PA (Dermatology/3 yr)

coming from a smaller school, I am SO happy I got to apply before this crap lol << say bye-bye to IMGs and DOs applying to derm #NewFilters// #hater #NoNeedYourNegativeComments You sound too happy about blocking DOs and IMGs// not at all, I think the change is going to bring even more nepotism to a field already full of it. I think the labels of MD/DO/IMG/FMG are irrelevant in your ability to be a doctor <chill, theyre not hating on DO's/IMG's. They're stating the likely downstream impact. The one objective measure that would help those applicants stand out is now out the window until Step 2 becomes the new step 1

a

https://usmle.org/inCus/

Derm is gonna be a shit show. Prestige, honors, research

"tier" of med school just became a lot more important. Honoring clerkship doesn't matter since some top tier schools have P/F clinical grades...

at least in my MSPE, my raw/percentile for all shelfs are posted, so now its gonna be on that too. lmao arms race

grades will always trump shelf scores. Penn honors with 80% shelf will be more favorable than lower tier school honors with 95th percentile

What about the PHDs?

what about us? 4 more years to grind out Step 2 CK anki decks during our phd, get that 280 lmao

will be totally dependent on step 2 then!

Derm doesn't care a lick about step 2

they will now x2<also, this is totally false, had many interviewers comment on "how impressed they were" by my CK score (at multiple top 10 programs)

what was your step 2 score? Mine is pretty high and no one said anything.

yeah I anticipate that the new score screen will be step 2 and programs will just make having step 2 scores mandatory...

sounds suspect to me if there was only 1 person. Wonder what these ppl get out of doing fake RTM? maybe they think the rest of us will rank these places lower?

Unfortunately its near impossible to interpret RTM calls on this spreadsheet

even when it says x2 or x3 it could be a random fake post from 1 person

Exactly

Yale might not do R2M but they are known to make it very clear that they want you so if there's been no correspondence, that's definitely a sign - also Stanford and Penn has indeed sent out calls

Yale won't get everyone they want, so don't worry if there is no correspondence from any of these programs

If a place has sent out RTM calls and you didn't get one... would it be unusual for you to still match there? x2 << not impossible, but your chances are much lower

<Not really. The applicants who are getting r2m calls at these locations are getting r2m calls from all the others that do them as well, and everyone can only go to one program.

fake news for sure

guess I'm ranking Penn #1 then ;)

i heard they still use paper charts --> this is completely false << this is completely a joke. it's penn, of course they can afford epic. kind of a silly question imo.

epic

when youre a baller department and have your own newsletter :O https://dermatology.upenn.edu/wp-content/themes/dermatology_main/_library/pdf/Newsletter-Fall-2019.pdf

Loved it, but thought the faculty were more intense than other top 5 programs

Amazing program. Absolute favorite hands down.

best program in the country. hands down. A tier above the other 4 in the top 5

People with other top 5 interviews outside penn really trying hard to reduce the competition... x3

or ppl being honest... crazy right?

California resident is doing all the trolling

stanford << disagree. Residents talked more with each other than with applicants during the resident dinner lol -- just goes to show how tight knit and happy of a group they are. (or how little they actually see of each other)

I thought the people at Harvard were fantastic x2.

The Harvard residents are super shady. They have secret hang-outs but dont invite the residents that arent "cool" enough. Serious mean girls shit. Lol. Very clique-y.

Wait where did you hear this? FAKE NEWSSSSS << I didn't "hear" it. I experienced it. If you don't believe me, go confront one of the "popular" residents about it.

LOL love how in the cell to the left Stanford residents are called tight knit and happy for sticking together and Harvard residents are called cliquey

If you feel "left out" by the residency class, maybe you're the weird one

harsh lol

Penn > UCSF > Stanford = Harvard >> all others . (x2 though I did not go to one of these, I have the same order for the other 3, but it varies alot with who you happened to talk to) ^sounds like someone's desperate to go to Harvard/UCSF/Stanford : )

haha I agree with this order, and I am ranking Penn 1. If people are actually trying to alter ranks by these orders, that is kinda sad....if it works that's even more sad lol

UCSF and Penn were my favorites x5 <- damn lol, you guys are very lucky to have interviewed at both

didn't interview at UCSF, but had the other 4 "top 5" programs and agree Penn residents seem closest. I would put NYU up there as well

utsw residents were chill! did not expect that x2

very pleasant surprise. The program moved up on my list based on the people there which I was not expecting

Hopkins residents were so fun and nice! x3

<- i feel like a lot is based on history no? I know at NYU they trained some of the trailblazers in derm (like way way back) and it was also big during the AIDS epidemic -- That's good to know. Tbh, I actually don't know much of anything about derm history, and wasn't aware. So do you think they got their reputation mostly based on years of continuous contributions to the field?

NYU is the top creme de la creme program.

i would cream myself to match any of the top 5 x2 <My mentors have mentioned slightly different lists to me that they consider the top programs (though 3-4 of those always make the list), so it is all subjective. <<< Thanks for the input, good to know that they may not be as static as they seem

< would love to hear your mentors lists

Tufts, Harvard, BU, UCLA, UCSF

LOL <why are 3/5 in Boston? That just doesn't sound right to me.

Penn, NYU, Harvard, UCSF, Stanford (geography/city playing a role, but hoping for Penn) . <<tbh glad I do not have all of these. It would be too hard to choose

in terms of what? clinical vs research vs ... they are very different programs

In terms of whatever matters to you.

Clinically: UCSF, Penn>Harvard>Stanford>NYU

< really? I feel like clinically NYU would be the strongest by far because you're spending 2/3 of your entire residency at the VA+county/public hospital = lots of autonomy. << LOL that person has no idea what they're talking about. Clinically, it's UCSF > NYU > Harvard > Stanford > Penn. Overall reputation is Harvard > Stanford > Penn > UCSF > NYU << lol at these absurd rankings, true delusion

I've heard it's UCSF > Harvard > Stanford > NYU > Penn

Its almost as if the top 5 is interchangable and it really comes down to personal preferences and biases

haha so true x3

Look at last year’s rank sheet. Penn was most popular #1 rank then Stanford out of the top 5.

because everyone definitely writes their ranking and is definitely honest about it too

lol'ed at that gullible person

< there is literally no benefit to faking what you are ranking 1 because that only would dissuade people from also listing that one, which ends up in them possibly ranking where you actually want to go as 1. Also, it's anonymous. It's not each person's specific rank, but a tally of how many people are rankin each program a certain number on their list so there is very little benefit to lying. There is usually a 1/5 yield, so it's actually a good amount of people of the interviewees.

< https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16WyBDd4BhLhqR5F5BWMLRAKtq_Na3d9DHyokLtUg0rA/edit#gid=596104293

< can't say personally that I know specifics but have definitely heard from current residents ranking non top 5-10 places higher than such prestigious places for much better environments supporting of any career path.

If you want to do Mohs, it can be helpful to choose a program that has a Mohs fellowship (for instance, Stanford does not). You may want to also consider that certain top programs may be less likely to want to train their own residents. For instance, I've heard UCSF sometimes prioritizes non-UCSF residents for Mohs fellowship slots - in that case, the reasoning is they'd prefer to train people who'd be less likely to stay in the Bay Area as the market is already saturated there and they don't want to train more "competition" for their own practice. That's certainly not to say that any of those top programs won't be super supportive in your application to other top programs. It's honestly probably a case-by-case thing. << that's a BS made up story. They dont care if you stay in the area. You aren't "competition" for them. If that ridiculous postulation were true, no program would train people from their home program for fear of "competition" to their practice. Ridiculous. >> the competition piece is a common concern for Mohs surgeons, so it is true.. not sure who feels so confidents its not, it is, it is well known in the Mohs field that people dont want to train their own competitoin -- certainly not all mohs surgeons, but about 50% probably feel this way including some at academic institutions<< that may be true overall but the OP was specifically saying this about UCSf and it should have been a more general statement, because it doesnt only apply to UCSF. << seems like the OP is just trying to make UCSF look bad when, in actuality, it is probably one of the most supportive programs in the top 5 for Mohs

<--That's not true at all. UCSF basically always offers to keep their residents if they want to stay. I know that for a fact. They've had plenty of years where 2/3 or 3/3 fellows were UCSF residents.

OP here. This is based off discussions with a former UCSF resident who wanted to stay at UCSF but did not match there. I have no idea what this specific residents relationship with the department was...but can you tell you this is honest and true information I discussed with said resident. UCSF is a great and supportive training program. And this person did match elsewhere at a great program. Honestly not trying to mislead anyone. << one residnet not matching at their program doesn't mean "they dont like to keep their own residents." That was likely a resident specific issue. It's not helpful when you use broad/sweeping statements. <--- OP again. The way I was explained this was this was the "culture" at UCSF for Mohs - and same logic was applied to other internal applicants that year. I also personally know my own program's Mohs fellowship director prefers not to take internal candidates - though he's very supportive of getting them matched elsewhere. His rationale is more that he prefers to bring in "new" people to the program, rather than preventing "competition", though our metro area is also admittedly saturated with Mohs surgeons and it is difficult to impossible to find a full time position. I've also heard of other programs - like Mayo Rochester for instance - highly favor internal applicants. It's an institution-specific thing.

I will second the fact that its common knowledge that many places don't want to train their competition for Mohs. I have no knowledge about which specific programs / if this applies to UCSF, but just backing up the OP in saying that this line of thinking would not be out of place as it is prevalent in the Mohs field <<To echo this, this is true for many subspeciality fellowships in many different fields. New fields that are not recognized fellowships yet often have fellows sign noncompetes today which was true for some Mohs programs 15-20 years ago (and probably still true for the some that are not ACGME). Now, most fellowships can't have official noncompetes, but they will try to pick applicants with that in mind...medicine is a business.

this is true and has actually been studied/reported in the literature. https://journals.lww.com/dermatologicsurgery/Citation/2019/10000/Micrographic_Surgery_and_Dermatologic_Oncology.15.aspx

Anyone know how many applicants interview for Med-Derm positions? For NW, Penn, Harvard, etc.?

< thank you!!

10+ internal i believe <yes I think ~12

holy shit that many?? is that normal for penn? I'm honestly surprised with that many internals all of their residents aren't from penn itself

< they have 2 dates so I'm assuming they interview 20-30? Also are they very internal-favoring...? I go to a top15 med school and literally none of our applicants got an invite from Penn

super internal favoring, just look at the list of their current residents

looks like they take 1-2 internals per year, would not say thats "super internal favoring" compared to other programs

they interview all internals on a separate date (already happened) and I think they have 3 dates for externals?

1-2 internal/yr sounds about right. I don't think I would call it super internal heavy esp given the number of internal applicants each year

They are internal favoring though -- I didn't just say that meaning actual internal penn students, I meant internal in the broader sense of the word eg, some of the current residents were research fellows and some have parents on penn faculty -- once all of that is taking into account, it begins to look like they take ~1-2 students internal from penn itself (usually 2) and ~1-2 students internal in another way (usually 2) which is ~ 80% of their spots so....

< so many lies in these cells it's hilarious << someone said Baylor literally had double-digit internal applicants though.

can confirm, not a lie

Can also confirm, I have heard 12 baylor from multiple students

<knowing that I’d still become a board certified dermatologist << , and to OP, the program probably feels the same way about people who they ranked highly and didn't match with them. <what do you mean by "OP"

Speaking of this, does anyone know on average how far down their list people tend to match? do most people match into one of their top three? -- Absolutely not in derm, some do, but I doubt it's even half. I have the same question, maybe a PGY-1 who already match or a derm resident can help with this one <^PGY1 matched last year. This is a great question, there's no good data on this, it's anecdotal and you have to reason through it. The overall answer is, it's not as common to match top #1-3 as in IM or EM or Peds etc (larger specialties) because class sizes are so much smaller, and it's more competitive. It's also not uncommon, at least to match within your top 3. The way I see it play out is, there's kind of 2 scenarios (2 kinds of applicants) where you're MORE LIKELY to match #1 (not a guarantee and not the only 2 ways but just more likely) -Scenario 1: If you're a very strong applicant and have multiple top 5/10/20 invites, AND one of those programs is your #1 etc., you're more likely to match at your top choice. Those programs usually have larger class sizes so the statistics are much in your favor. Furthermore you're in a group of top applicants who will sort themselves out based on geographic preferences more than actual program rankings (they're all kinda similar in the top 10). -Scenario 2: You're a good applicant overall, and your top #1etc. choice is a program of superior interest or fit to you - e.g. your #1 happens to be your home program where everyone loves you and wants you to stay, or you are from a program that's in your hometown which is very regional - for example let's say your #1 is Penn State and you're from Hershey PA and you make it known you want to be there with family - then you're much more likely to match there as long as they liked you since they know you're a safe choice for coming there and having support etc. This is kind of a niche so you'll know if you're a scenario 2 applicant. -also this is all just like my opinion man

< on last year's spreadsheet, on the stats tab, lots of people matched at their 1st and 2nd choices, but it's hard to get a sense of overall how people match

Yeah but maybe thats just a bias based on the people who posted

<PGY-1 matched last year to #12, but honestly not at all dissapointed. There is a notion that not matching #1 there is something wrong with you/ you would be unhappy. Truthfully I would be dissapointed if I matched #15 and 16, but otherwise I would be ecstatic anywhere else.

<- I only have literally half the number of interviews (6). This does not bode well for me :(

< ya super scary for us folks that cant really go 10+ deep into our rank list because we dont have that many invites

Yes, internals only > internal day was this month, 1/9 is an external day

yes penn internal was this month

op of this box: totally misread that as 12/9 sorry for the confusion don't think 1/9 is internal only

1/9 is for people who are lower on the pre-interview rank list. Dec was internal

Where do you get this information from that 1/9 is for lower on rank list <lmao you people

<< Lol at this troll. 1/9 is not internal and date has nothing to do with rank list.

toxic. malignant. NO BUENO.

I think you will have to feel it out, but pretty sure it is good. In the top ~5 I don't think any programs is known to have a particularly bad culture.

thank you for expanding! For the person who said toxic, why?

I was joking. People there seem happy

No idea what that person is talking about (edit: they were joking. I'll leave what I typed). Culture at Penn is great. Residents are really happy and faculty are as well. I think the number of hospitals and amount of complex med-derm means that residents work a little more than average (for derm lol) but I've been very impressed with how they maintain that family/community vibe despite the appartent reputation as just a machinistic academic powerhouse. Mentorship is also second-to-none. Lots of opportunity to tailor things to whatever you want to do.

< amazing, thank you!!

you got it! <3

pretty much every rejection

idk, i knew i wasnt going to haaavad so when i got the r i moved on. wake forest though, making me look in a fucking attachment to figure out if i was rejected? LMAO SALTY AF about that

<that rutgers "non-acceptance" was pretty annoying

< Home state programs and undergrad school (to be fair my undergrad is a top 5, but I still wanted it haha)

USC

Penn...got an interview from literally every single top 20+ program except for them, and they were my initial top choice.

strong flex

lmao